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  #1  
Old 05-22-2006, 09:46 PM
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cavetech cavetech is offline
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Knife Sales & Liability

I posted a quation like this someplace and can't find it. My apologies if my goof causes you guys to have to read this twice.

I got started making knives on this forum and have been hooked ever since. I have learned a lot here. It would be more accurate to state that I enjoy buying blades and finishing them. That led to needing sheaths. That led to both leather sheaths and kydex sheaths. Very enjoyable and satisfying. It's a long learning curve, too.

By now they are accumulating. A friend asked to see them and I dragged them all out. She liked them and told others. Now three of them have been spoken for in sales. I still have a hard time coming to terms with someone that's actually wanting to pay for something I made/finished. But, they are pileing up, literally. So I said I'd sell the three.

Now I'm wondering what my liability will be if I sell the knives I've made. This is a topic I have not seen discussed before. Making, sure, but not liability after a sale.


What do you guys think that actually sell your knives?


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  #2  
Old 05-23-2006, 05:46 AM
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Ice Tigre Ice Tigre is offline
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Do you mean liability, as in being held responsible?

I'm going to include a card, probably my buisness card on one side, and a disclaimer on the other, staiting that "I can't be held liable or resonsible for any damage/injury caused by this knife, or its use or misuse. The buyer//owner assumes all responsibility for this knife." I believe that should cover me legaly, although i'm not sure.

But yeah,
It's something I've thought about, mostly the idea that if I sell a dagger (got one listed now) or fighter for instance, and the guy that buys it goes out and murders someone with it, is someone going to try to hold me responsible, (or if I know about it how am I going to feel)

I'm interested to see how other makers handle things like this.......

Gary
(if I've missed what you meant, my apologies.....


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  #3  
Old 05-23-2006, 08:28 AM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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I'm old enough to believe that a person is responsible for his own actiona. If you're clumbsy and hurt yourself with my knives or hurt someone else that's your fault and not the fault of the knife. However, there are plenty of lawyers these days who try to turn that around. Generally, the courts have not blamed the tool for the actions of the operator.

There are some other areas where caution is advised. Every little jurisdiction has its own rules. California is especially bad about this and you can get into trouble for shipping a knife there if the knife is one that a Californian is prohibitedfrom owning. In each case, it is up to you to familiarize yourself with these laws. Since that is not actually realistic, most sellers advise customers that they are selling the knife on the assumption that the buyer knows his local regulations and the knife in question is legal at that location.

For the most part, this whole conversation is moot as long as you stay away from switchblades, daggers, push knives, gravity knives and anything that would scare the faint of heart if he saw it laying on your dresser. For common hunting knives, kitchen knives, and normal looking small pocket knives there's not much to worry about....


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Old 05-23-2006, 09:30 AM
Jacktheknife Jacktheknife is offline
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Howdy Ya'll

Its a long story but to make it readable,
I got murdered 5 years ago.
Two Sheriff deputies were over telling me about the three cowards who 'done it'.
One an experianced 50 year old deputy, and the other a kid, 'two weeks' on the force.
The 'kid' saw a knife on my fireplace mantle with both sides sharpened.
He said:
"That knife is illegal!
The older deputy and I looked knowlingly at one another and I spoke:
"It is sharpened on both sides isn't it?"
"Hmmm, It would be illegal to carry that knife around in ones truck."
"In a bank, or into the beer store. "
"However... it is perfectly legal sitting there on my fireplace mantle."
"In my house, which is in the middle of 'my 25 acres,'
which is not in any city limits,
and I didn't call you,
ya'll just showed up. "

The 'kid' looked at the older deputy and the older deputy said:
"He's right."

Years ago when I bought my SKS rifle, 'old Essey',
my 'Hog killing machine.'
I heard the bayonet was illegal.
I took it off first thing as I didn't need a bayonet anyway.
But I think I'll put it back on as it may be illegal on my gun rack in the truck but is perfectly legal in my home. I never carry it in my truck but rather hunt hog walking distance of my house.

Ya'll, life is so much simpler if 'one owns ones own' land.
If 'cousin Joe' or 'cousin Earl' come over at midnight,
drunk as usual and we decide to shoot cans off the target stump 40 yards from my porch,
with old Essey, I assure everyone we just do, no problem.
I couldn't, no way, live in the city limits again.
Everythings illegal in the city limits!


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and Killer of Whitemen-3
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  #5  
Old 05-23-2006, 10:04 AM
Dan Graves Dan Graves is offline
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I think machine guns, bazookas, tanks, rockets, all military guns, bombs, daggers, switchblades, etc. should be legal. These things dont kill people. People kill people. A baseball bat will do a fine job and its legal. The first step Hilter did was outlaw the citizens right to own guns. Just my 2 cents.


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  #6  
Old 05-23-2006, 11:06 AM
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TikTock TikTock is offline
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Maybe I am too worry-free but I just box em up and ship em out....I figure if someone wants to kill someone, they arent going to be buying a custom handmade knife to do so. If they do use one of mine to kill someone, i doubt my knife is going to be the ultimate cause of death, so my assumptions have always been that once they own it, what they do with it is their own business.


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  #7  
Old 05-23-2006, 11:36 AM
suthincomfort suthincomfort is offline
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Cool re: liability

yeah could you just see the beauty in a knife required to have the warnings etc we find on guns these days just read the stuff on a ruger & many others. someone should make up one to show just what should'nt be done. there would'nt be room for a blade. thats one reason to consider having some engraving done on your gun so all that craps not there anymore. just my two cents , tom
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Old 05-23-2006, 11:59 AM
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Josh O Mason Josh O Mason is offline
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just why in the hell are automatic knives illegal?

You have all these fancy assisted openers and "wave" models and thumbholes/studs/levers that whip a blade out just as fast or faster...

Automatic knives are handy as hell when youre in a situation when you cant use both hands. It's a very practical and neat design and it blows my mind that it's illegal.

Is it just because the scared-to-death human sheep associate switchblades with criminals?

If so, thats retarded.

Last edited by Josh O Mason; 05-23-2006 at 12:01 PM.
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  #9  
Old 05-23-2006, 12:51 PM
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Ed Caffrey Ed Caffrey is offline
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Sadly, liability is something that each knifemaker needs to consider, and be aware of. I am of the same mindset as Ray, where a person is responsible for his/her own actions, or lack of actions. However, in today's society, there are those who lay in wait. Look what happened to Burr-King a few years ago....some knucklehead got hurt by doing somethng stupid at his grinder and sued.....and won!

In all the years I've been a Bladesmith I have only had one incident, that being an individual who brought his knife (not one I had produced) to my shop for sharpening. I sharpened the knife and jokingly told him as he was walking out the door... "I'm not respoinsible if you cut off body parts with that knife!"
Those few words, saved my bacon! I got a call the next morning from the individual's lawyer telling me that I was being sued for medical bills, and pain & suffering. Seems the idiot was showing his friend the knife and tapped the edge on the palm of his hand...the fella took a trip to the emergency room, and 9 stitches later decided I should pay for his stupidity.
Luckily, I know a lot of folks around town, and one of my lawyer type friends took pity on me. His first question was.. "Did you in any way warn him, or tell them that you were not responsible for any injury he might recieve from the knife you sharpened?" I told him what I had said to the fella, and then he said "Don't worry, give me the lawyer's phone number that called you and I'll take care or it." He did. He also helped me to write a waiver of liability statement that anyone working in my shop must sign. He told me that nothing if foolproof concerning liability, but that requiring individuals to sign a written statement would fend out 99% of any problems.

Do I worry a lot about liability....No. Is it a concern? Always. It only takes one stupid person to leave you pennyless, homeless, and with a conviction on your record. I certainly do not sell knives to anyone I don't believe can handle the responsibility of owning/using one.


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  #10  
Old 05-23-2006, 01:03 PM
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TikTock TikTock is offline
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OOOF! Guess i need to write something up!


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  #11  
Old 05-23-2006, 01:32 PM
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B.Finnigan B.Finnigan is offline
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I have two friends in the asset protection business and I have learned alot how to protect a business. INCORPORATE! And have a friendly lien against the corporation with you as the lien holder. You also file a UCC 1 commercial lien ($10 online) against the corp. The corp is in perpetual debt and your own personal assets are protected. An attorney will always do an asset search to find out if it is worthwhile to sue. A UCC 1 commercial lien is public info and will show $XXX,XXX of debt against the corp. You just stopped a lawsuit before it ever happened. If the atty decides to sue anyway you just call the note due (with a huge amount of interest) thus bankrupting the corp. Since you have a UCC 1 lien you have first right to the assets in the corp before anyone else. Corporate bankruptcy does not affect your own personal credit.

This process does not require an attorney, it sounds complicated but it is not. I have done for three businesses to date. If people really knew what they could lose if a judgement goes against them they would take drastic steps to protect themselves. Liability insurance is just that, it insures that you WILL get sued. It is called the pot of gold that attorneys are looking for. It is the same thing as covering yourself with honey and then walking into a den of bears and wondering why they attacked you.

I have been a small business owner for 25 years and have never been sued and never will be. You can't get blood from a turnip.

Last edited by B.Finnigan; 05-23-2006 at 10:28 PM.
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  #12  
Old 05-23-2006, 08:07 PM
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cavetech cavetech is offline
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There are some interesting responses here. From there is no liability to handing out a message.

I recall McDonald's being sued because of coffee a person spilled in their own lap. That person won the suit.

I not sure the knife maker isn't liable. Especially if it breaks/fails in some way even if misused.

Guess this one doesn't have an easy answer.


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  #13  
Old 05-23-2006, 09:16 PM
fitzo fitzo is offline
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The part that always scared me was that anyone can basically sue you for anything. Sure, they may not win, but you have to hire a lawyer to defend yourself regardless. Then you have to countersue to recover your losses. Vicious circle. Everyone loses except the lawyers, who eat that kind of stuff up, especially in lawsuit-happy liberal "blue" states like Illinois.

Issues like this and trying to get a business ####### to make knives out of my basement shop (zoned residential, knifemaking is "light manufacturing", so it was not allowed) drove me from selling knives anymore.
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  #14  
Old 05-23-2006, 09:47 PM
suthincomfort suthincomfort is offline
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go to the law library & get the forms book you'll find just about anything you will do in court covered in those books basically fill in the information to make it fit your circumstance & file it with the court clerk wherever your at. thats how the jail house lawyers do it. then ya don't haveta swim with the sharks , tom
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  #15  
Old 05-24-2006, 06:50 PM
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cavetech cavetech is offline
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Thank you, all for the input.

I still wonder.

Ed says a disclaimer. Mike got out of the selling business.

Hmmm........


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