ATS-34 or 154CM?

I have been making my knives mostly form D-2 but have been thinking about making some from either ATS-34 or 154CM, is there a big differance from the two. I know that alot of people use ATS34 but i have heard that 154CM is making a comeback, is there truth to this?

I also found the sequence to harden the ATS-34 but can't seen to find the sequence to harden the 154CM..i do my own heattreating with the use of a hydrogen furnace here at my work.

Any answers would be great.

thanks,
stan

I've been using ATS for years because of the unavailability of 154. It is now easy to get and supposed to be great stuff. They probably cost about the same, but I'm not exactly sure. I have a piece here awaiting completion and will report when it is finished.

The only difference will be cleanliness of the roduct, I suppose, since the mix is virtually the same. Both steels have, in the past, been bad-mouthed for not being clean, but I've never had any really big problems with either.

As I understand it, heat treating is identical for both steels.

Make sure you sub-zero treat those steels.

Steve
If I am not mistaken Bob Loveless was the first to use CM154 back in the mid or late 70's. I remember that the early stuff was a little trashey after heat treating. Back in the 70's it was a little hard to get until someone found out that Crucibil (sp) Metals would do a smelt on order (one size only). A number of us got together and ordered a supply straight from the company....size 1 1/2 x 3/16 (oversized). The pieces came in 16 foot lengths and was shipped to Harvey McBurnette. Harvey lived in Piedmont, Alabama at that time. We all converged at his home and split up the booty. At that time CM154 was concidered a modified 440-C....I still think it is. It of course heatreats at a much higher tempature than 440. 440-C at 1850 F and CM154 at 1950 F to 2000 F. You are right in your knowledge of both steels.....there isn't much difference. You are correct in the sub-0 quench. Drawing is done (the way I do it) with double draw 900 F....the schedule calls for the draw to be one hour per inch of thickness....cool to room tempature both times and then to the sub-0 tank. I also quench it one more time at about 800 to 900. Heat treating for ATS-34 is the same. I still have a couple of 6 foot bars left from that order back in the 70's.....never had any problems with finish....was always very clean. The only problem I had with CM154 is that the average person had a little problem sharpening.....hardness normally tested to 62 to 64 RC hardness. With the advent of the diamond stone this problem seemed to be solved. I believe Bob should get the credit for the use of this steel and it's introduction to knifemaking......correct me if I'm wrong.
Jim

I even did the sub-zero quench on my D-2 as well(working for a physics dept. you have access to a lot of liquid nitrogen). Now, on both the ATS-34 and 154CM what would be the ideal rockwell that would you want to end up with.
I know on my knives with D-2 i double temper to end up with a 58-59 rockwell.

thanks,
Stan

When I hit L.A., there was a pile of 154-CM in Bob's driveway, waiting for us to go to work.

We made up some blades and took them over to Downey Steel Treating for heat treating. They didn't feel that sub-zero was necessary, so they came out too soft. We/and they talked it over and decided to folow the directions, using the sub-zero, and they came out fine.

There were a few inclusions/pits, but that didn't bother us, we weren't after a perfect polish at that time. They made great knives, that's all Bob was concerned about, as he still is.

Thanks for the interesting history, Jim.

I'd go with 60-61 RC on the hardness, Stan.

Thanks

Stan
Your target hardness should be....just as Steve said...60 to 61 RC. I have gotten it a little harder that's why I draw it one more time after the sub- 0 quench. To be truthful...just like you...I sub- 0 quench all the highspeed tool steels....D2-A2-440-C...440-V and on and on. If you have access to alot of liquid nitrogen...throw in your wrenches, hammer heads and even the shop cat. I have even sub-zeroed drill bits....seems to make them a little tougher. As long as you follow the instructions sent to you by the supplier....you won't go wrong.
I constantly check the pyrometer with a digital reader to make sure the oven is at the correct tempature....very improtant. It sound like to me you have a good handle on the situation...you shouldn't have any problems.
Jim

I can't say that I have heard that 154cm is making a come back. As far as I can see 154 & ats-34 a practically interchangable. We have always used ats-34 because of availibilty and good heat treat info taken on it.


Good luck, clearly both steels pass the muster.

154cm has been making a come back for a number of reasons. It was that you had to make a large order to get some, now my understanding is that crucible is make knifemaker size batches so you don't have to order a ton at a time. 154cm is made cleaner than ats34, at least lately and 154cm is an American product, while ATS34 is made by Hitachi.

So, what would you guys recommend...the ATS34 or 154CM?

I just read a back issue of blade - sept 2000 and it put 154CM ahead of ATS34 in all test..but there must be a reason for most knifemakers to use the ats34..right?

To change the subject, would i notice a diffreance in grinding between D-2 and ats34 or 154cm?

thanks again...i dont know what i would do without the help and wisdom of the top makers that are on these forums,
my thanks to you all.

I'll be posting another picture of another one of my D-2 knives as soon as i get it back from my sheathmaker.

Stan

Thanks, Dave & Jerry.

I wonder if we could replace "come back" with "availability." I'm sure, that in doing the work of a knife, that they'd be impossible to tell the difference. Just my opinion. Obviously those who tested them in the article, which I can't remember seeing, have different beliefs. I'll try to find it and check it out.

Polish: I can't say, 'cause I haven't finished up my one piece. Use the one you feel like using, you won't go wrong with either choice. Heck, try them both...nothing to lose.

I'm anxious to use the U.S.-made product, if I can get the chance. Just can't get the time to get it done. Of course lack of planning couldn't have anything to do with it!

Looking fwd. to seeing the photo.

I have been using both ATS-34 and 154CM for the last few months. There is no noticeable difference in the way it grinds or the way it works before or after heat treat. The 154 I have gotten has pitting, just like Steve mentioned. For the 3/16" stock, I surface ground it clean. On 1/8" stock, it took a little extra effort on the disk sander. I had two blades that had deep occlusions that took some serious effort to get out, so in my recent experience, 154CM is not a "clean" as the rumor mill says it is.

Well, at the risk of starting an argument or sounding like a snob, neither of these steels is as good as BG42. 154CM is definitely cleaner than ATS34, so, between those steels that would be my hands down choice.
But, you can't beat the total purity of the BG42 (it's a bearing steel)! the Vanadium content contributes greatly to wear resistance and edge holding, and the correct hardness is RC61.
Just my 2 cents.

RJ Martin

I'd say those two cents are worth two dollars.

It is very beautiful steel. I hear that some heat treaters have a warpage probem.

If you want beauty, go with RWL-34.

steve, what is your steel of choice and what do you use most and why?

when buying ATS-34 i should look for the hot rolled - correct?
is there one place to buy it to insure it being "clean"

what is RWL-34 and where do you get that and what is the differance?

thanks again,
stan

ATS-34. It makes a great knife and I know it's characteristics. How many more pieces of rope must a knife cut to be a heck of a lot better than another? It is sharpen-able, and the harder and tougher a blade you get the harder and tougher it'll be to sharpen. Then again, how many will use my knives? A few, I guess.

I'll be using BG-42 and S 60V more down the line. If, after some use and experience, this "new" 154 pans out, I'll probably switch. (Note above comments, however). They're about the same in price, I guess. I'm anxioius to try it, but am not able to mess with anything right now.

RWL is great, but getting it is a hassle, it seems. It's just a PM version of 154/ATS, but there are no inclusions, there is no grain and it gets really sharp. It, as I have said inother threads, looks like mercury, it's so clean and clear.

Get HRAP if you can. The plate seeems to have more troubles than the rolled. I get mine from K&G, KOVAL, TRU-GRIT.