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High-Performance Blades Sharing ideas for getting the most out of our steel.

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  #16  
Old 01-31-2006, 06:31 PM
Ssj2 Ssj2 is offline
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OK I understand now how this was such a great steel. the matrix it self was 38rc giveing it good toughness and they would aline the edge with a very hard carbide band going thru the sword. Just how hard is iron carbide? and would this method really make it supieor to mondern steels in cuttlery?
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  #17  
Old 01-31-2006, 07:32 PM
Greg obach Greg obach is offline
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talkin steel over a couple of beers..... . now that would hit the spot !!

combines my two favourite things.... beer and melting steel..



Ssj2: I'd watch the " superior to modern cuttlery" description... .. .... its just a good steel.... like 1070, 1084 and 1095 is just a good steel...
-

i wouldn't put in in the class of the uber tough modern alloys like L6 or S7 (heat treated for such)

its so hard to quantify the difference in steel cutting performance.... yesh... .. i'm happy aslong as i'm not rushing to the sharpening stones all the time.... and the steel can chop through a 5 inch dry cherry log without needing resharpening.... what kind of performance do you really need?
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  #18  
Old 01-31-2006, 10:03 PM
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AUBE AUBE is offline
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good article Kevin! made me laugh out loud a few times.

this all reminds me of another type of hype...the invincible ninja/samurai/kungfu master. when mixed martial arts competitions(like ultimate fighting championshp) became mainstream it was obvious what worked and what didnt and that any style can be overcome...but i still meet people that know someone that knows someone that met an invincible master. i guess it comes back to what you pointed out in your article, our fascination with the "mysterious east".

michigan opposums are ugly critters arent they? im animal lover (ive even pet a couple wild possums) but everytime i look at one i think "man youre ugly". then again, i wonder what they think of me?
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  #19  
Old 02-01-2006, 03:04 AM
Ssj2 Ssj2 is offline
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Something interesting I found, angel sword makes wootz Damascus swords. They claim that there Damascus swords are the best they make, kind of suprising since they also make S7 swords too. What's more interesting is that acording to a study done on them there consistany hardend in the 50s rc range. Check out the bottom of this page and click on the link for more info http://www.angelsword.com/steel.php
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  #20  
Old 02-01-2006, 06:50 AM
Jeff Pringle Jeff Pringle is offline
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That's alloy banding & and marketing, technically not the same as wootz as defined by Verhoeven & Pendray, or as understood by most humans. Many steels can be made to get wootz-like features by giving them an isothermal treatment (holding at a temperature corresponding to the nose of the TTT curve), or manipulating them in a couple other ways. See, for example, "On Banding in Steel" by Girardi and Rowland in the Transactions of the American Society for Metals Vol. 48, 1956. Ed Fowler gets wootz-like features in 52100 by some sort of thermal cycling.

Last edited by Jeff Pringle; 02-01-2006 at 06:57 AM.
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  #21  
Old 02-01-2006, 09:37 AM
Kevin R. Cashen Kevin R. Cashen is offline
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Oh no I can see one of my demontrations getting pulled into this again. Seems everytime the subject of banding comes up an image of a piece of 52100 in which I wrote my initials in the wootz-like patterning, usually gets posted. I guess I do need to reform my ways as I can be a trouble maker. The problem is that when I see a beautiful bud of truth gettign burried under a big steaming pile of BS I can't help but to instinctively grab the pitch fork. If it weren't for his politics James Randi would be one of my heros.

Wootz is defined by its properties resulting from it being a crucible cast, high carbon steel. Folks who have cast the real stuff in our day will tell you that it was a bit of a task to get it done, much more than just thermo-cycling a piece of 52100 as I did.

If simple alloy banding banding = wootz, then anybody is equalling the accomplishments of folks like Pendray, Verhoeven, Ric Furrer and others anytime they spheroidize anneal or even heat plain tool steel too many times at the wrong temp. The internet forums are full of posts where people are asking what those funny lines are in their blade, and how they can make them go away. I always tell them- no problem, reharden it and this time hit the proper soak temperature. The banding will go away and the carbon will be free to make a fully hardened martensitic blade this time.

I asked Ed if he was working with actual wootz and he reaffirmed that he is just working with the good old 52100 that has served him so well in his blades with that the patterning.

As for other parts of this discussion, the public needs information but it can be perilous, all I will do is post this link: http://forums.swordforum.com/showthr...threadid=59212

Last edited by Kevin R. Cashen; 02-01-2006 at 09:44 AM.
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  #22  
Old 02-01-2006, 09:52 AM
Kevin R. Cashen Kevin R. Cashen is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AUBE
...michigan opposums are ugly critters arent they? im animal lover (ive even pet a couple wild possums) but everytime i look at one i think "man youre ugly". then again, i wonder what they think of me?
I know folks who have kept them as pets, and they can kind of grow on you, but I couldn't bring myself to pet a wild one, not because of their ugliness or even their bite (which would have to be like a Komodo dragon, considering what they eat), but because I have see the teaming ecosystem living in that fur . You may be doing them a favor to shave them occasionally
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  #23  
Old 02-01-2006, 12:09 PM
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Alan L Alan L is offline
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Kevin, will you run for King of the World? I'll vote for you! Heck, I'll even shave my possum!

Ssj2, for some reason, the last several years every time that particular website is mentioned I can't help but think of this smilie...

It's just good marketing hype with some trademarked terms, not processes. I'm not saying the product isn't good, I'm just saying that hip waders are sometimes called for.
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  #24  
Old 02-01-2006, 12:22 PM
Greg obach Greg obach is offline
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no comment... i forgot myself there for abit..... now back to being mr goody twoshoes

to steer this back on course to the true wootz steel... ... my point is merely that it is an odd material that is acceptable as a blade stock... the legendary rumours can spoil a good thing.. .... ..... and i believe it was deliberately made... they weighed their charges to be purposely above a certain level of carbon.... .... otherwise why not just keep the carbon levels lower and make a 1080 steel ? .....

just abit to think on

i'm obviously an advocate for modern steels, also

I think real postive gains can be made by making crucible steels. You can design your own melts and steels for the intended purpose.... it doesn't have to be wootz steel, there are many other steels that make wonderful blades...
With the sudden increases in steel prices.... and changes in mill production (w2 or 1084 )... some steels maybe out of reach !!
crucible steel maybe a dependable method for bladesmith to get exactly what they want..... with abit of practice and patients...... ... plus it is #### exciting to pull out a crucible of molten steel (with tongs) out of the furnace bore... it's a rush like no other !!

its something i never dreamed i could do...... then one day i did...... and i'll never look back

Last edited by Greg obach; 02-02-2006 at 06:50 AM.
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  #25  
Old 02-01-2006, 03:21 PM
Ssj2 Ssj2 is offline
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So I guess the very fact that angel sword's "wootz Damascus" is hardend all the way thru in the 50rcs proves it's not the real thing because the real Damascus has hardend iron carbide bands in a softer bainite matrix.
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  #26  
Old 02-01-2006, 05:42 PM
Kevin R. Cashen Kevin R. Cashen is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan L
Kevin, will you run for King of the World? I'll vote for you! Heck, I'll even shave my possum! ...
I am afraid that my intolerance for people who refuse to think for themselves (I always thought that this has to be the most extreme form of laziness, to not even fire you own neurons) would make me the worst tyrant the world has ever known. All idiots that used a catch phrase or spouted a party line would be forbidden access to any popular media and sentenced to a library for a year of forced research until they were entirely independent thinkers.

Now with all the talk of truth in advertising and what may be real, I believe I will now fade out of this thread. When I was called in as an expert witness to shed some light on the aforementioned ordeal, I realized how unpleasant too much time around litigants and attorneys really can be. I wish no further contact, either positive or negative with the situation.
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  #27  
Old 02-02-2006, 09:54 AM
Jeff Pringle Jeff Pringle is offline
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Quote:
...it is an odd material...
I agree, Greg - but you meant old, didn't you?
Quote:
why not just keep the carbon levels lower and make a 1080 steel ?
It could be related to the furnace temperature - you need to hit a much higher temp to get .8 melted compared to 1.5 -they might have aimed for the carbon level that was most likely to melt, yet still be forgeable.
Which is not to say they couldn't hit the higher temps, we know they did - but the higher carbon could have upped the success rate.

Last edited by Jeff Pringle; 02-02-2006 at 09:59 AM.
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  #28  
Old 05-29-2006, 12:07 AM
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movingarrow movingarrow is offline
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For those who do not believe in the hand-made blades are equal or better than modern made blades, you may come to our table and check out our knifes and long-sword blades at 25-D of Atlanta Knife Show, or at least read my posts on the General Custom Custom Knife Related Discussions Forum. It may look ugly to some, but it may also give some credence to hand-made blades a new thought.


__________________
Norman

Last edited by movingarrow; 05-29-2006 at 12:11 AM.
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  #29  
Old 06-09-2006, 01:18 AM
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GHEzell GHEzell is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg obach
no comment... i forgot myself there for abit..... now back to being mr goody twoshoes

I think real postive gains can be made by making crucible steels. You can design your own melts and steels for the intended purpose.... it doesn't have to be wootz steel, there are many other steels that make wonderful blades...
With the sudden increases in steel prices.... and changes in mill production (w2 or 1084 )... some steels maybe out of reach !!
crucible steel maybe a dependable method for bladesmith to get exactly what they want..... with abit of practice and patients...... ... plus it is #### exciting to pull out a crucible of molten steel (with tongs) out of the furnace bore... it's a rush like no other !!

its something i never dreamed i could do...... then one day i did...... and i'll never look back

This is what I keep thinking about, mixing my own alloys to get the properties I want, without all the junk that finds it's way into modern recycled steel... That would be heaven.

Worth the price of admission, to me at least.

Kevin, that article had me rolling...good one.
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  #30  
Old 11-17-2006, 01:52 AM
jdm61 jdm61 is offline
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The evil Kevin Cashen, iconoclast and debunker of dearly held smithy beliefs strikes again.... Just kidding. I read a post a while back where someone said that because of the low hardness and real live "damascus cutting effect" of the carbides, wootz is a great "flesh cutter" and makes a good weapon against unarmored oposition, but is fairly useless on some more cantankerous materials. I seem to recall Al Pendray telling me back in '94 that the Japanese blades were still the best all around weapons made back in olden times, but they weren't as purty Boy, am I going to get torched by the katana groupies for that one So Mr. Cashen.....is it still your firmly held belief that the only time the spine of a regular use knife should be left dead soft is for your JS and MS perfromance tests? (taking the heat off of myself for the "ugly katana" comment )
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