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The Newbies Arena Are you new to knife making? Here is all the help you will need.

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  #1  
Old 07-26-2012, 09:20 AM
andrewj1398 andrewj1398 is offline
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No weld grinder vs. Coote grinder

So I am about to buy a grinder I have been told that a Coote is the best grinder to start out with it is on the high end of the hobbyist and the low end of the professional knife maker. I have also heard a lot of people building the no weld grinder. I have good and bad stories of making your own grinder. Also I have a electric motor that is HP 1/3-1/9 AND rpm 1725/1140. Is this a good motor for a grinder or do I need something else? Thanks for everyone's feed back in advance.
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  #2  
Old 07-26-2012, 10:38 AM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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The Coote is well made but sort of expensive. By the time you buy a good motor for it you'd could have enough invested to make it worth going for a low end KMG. The motor you have would be worthless for a grinder.

The No Weld can be great or not depending on your ability to fabricate. If you love to build your own equipment or if you have a zero budget then the No Weld is a good option. Otherwise, you could be better off spending some money and buying a grinder.

For about the same cost as the Coote you could get a Grizzly Knifemakers Grinder which comes with a very powerful motor. Granted, the Grizzly is not as well made as the Coote but the motor is already there and probably half the knife makers in the country have started with the Griz. To set up the Coote you'll need a motor , some pulleys, and a belt at the minimum. If you get a good motor (TEFC, 1725, and at least one HP) then you're looking at and additional $300 or more. Of course, you could scrounge a motor and take your chances , it's up to you.

A grinder is the center piece of a knife makers shop. They get used for everything. A good grinder with a few well chosen attachments can make your life soooo much easier and improve the quality of your work more than you can imagine. Get the best you can afford. If you can't afford much, then spend the least you can to get a working 2x72" and save the rest towards a pro grinder .....


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  #3  
Old 07-26-2012, 11:24 AM
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Ed Caffrey Ed Caffrey is offline
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Quote:
The No Weld can be great or not depending on your ability to fabricate.
I agree 100%! My opinion is that you would be far ahead with the Coote. Not knowing your fabrication skill level, but having tried to help many people "straighten out" a poorly built No-Weld grinder, I simply think that unless you have machine tools, and know how to use them (lathe, milling machine, etc.) the No Weld will present problems that you might not understand/recognize until things start acting up.

The biggest issue that most have contacted me about with their No-Weld machines is the tracking, and in most cases it has been because they failed to ensure all the "wheels" were aligned, and that each wheel was "true" to it's attachment point. I've also had a couple of individuals call me, telling me that they could not keep the bolts tight...and things would start "moving" and/or "rattling"......when I asked them is they had Loctite on the threads, I got the response.... "What's that?" Just sayin........


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  #4  
Old 07-26-2012, 11:44 AM
andrewj1398 andrewj1398 is offline
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The Grizzly was my first choice then I heard mixed things about it. I know everyone has there own opinion but I was just trying to get feed back. I defiantly understand the point about price of motor and pulleys. What pulleys do you recommend? I was hoping to find a used motor to start with. How do you control the speed of any grinder weather it be Coote or Grizzly?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Rogers View Post
The Coote is well made but sort of expensive. By the time you buy a good motor for it you'd could have enough invested to make it worth going for a low end KMG. The motor you have would be worthless for a grinder.

The No Weld can be great or not depending on your ability to fabricate. If you love to build your own equipment or if you have a zero budget then the No Weld is a good option. Otherwise, you could be better off spending some money and buying a grinder.

For about the same cost as the Coote you could get a Grizzly Knifemakers Grinder which comes with a very powerful motor. Granted, the Grizzly is not as well made as the Coote but the motor is already there and probably half the knife makers in the country have started with the Griz. To set up the Coote you'll need a motor , some pulleys, and a belt at the minimum. If you get a good motor (TEFC, 1725, and at least one HP) then you're looking at and additional $300 or more. Of course, you could scrounge a motor and take your chances , it's up to you.

A grinder is the center piece of a knife makers shop. They get used for everything. A good grinder with a few well chosen attachments can make your life soooo much easier and improve the quality of your work more than you can imagine. Get the best you can afford. If you can't afford much, then spend the least you can to get a working 2x72" and save the rest towards a pro grinder .....
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  #5  
Old 07-26-2012, 12:54 PM
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You don't control the speed of a Griz, it runs fast and that's pretty much it. Like I said, not the best grinder in the world but probably the best available at it's price. Again, the Coote is definitely better built but it's essentially the same design as a Griz: a 2-wheel grinder. That means adding things like a small wheel attachment or fancy platens and such is difficult at best and mostly just not worth the effort. The Coote can be set up with a variable speed motor or with step pulleys to control the speed and you would have a very nice machine if you did that. The cost of setting up a Coote that way would probably bring you into the bottom range of KMG grinders though and, nice as a Coote may be, any KMG beats a Coote by many miles.

So, I'm not trying to recommend anything. I'm trying to get you to see the strengths and weaknesses of each choice clearly so that you can match that up to your own budget and fabricating abilities and then make an informed decision. A good place to start looking for pulleys and other grinder building parts is in the catalogs of the major supply houses (some have websites, some don't). Sheffield's, K&G, and Jantz sell parts. You can pretty well guess that whatever it is they are selling will be the parts most often requested by knife makers building grinders.....


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  #6  
Old 07-26-2012, 02:20 PM
Doug Lester Doug Lester is offline
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I have a Coote and I've generally been happy with it. I have had some occasions when I wish that it had a flat platten arm like the KMG does but, for the most part, it's done all that I've asked of it. The Coote is also more expandable than the Griz. I have looked at things like the No Weld Grinder or The Grinder in a Box and, to me, that's a lot of money to put out there to chance ending up with something too poorly put together to work well. If I were an experienced machinist, it would be another matter.

Doug


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  #7  
Old 07-26-2012, 02:22 PM
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I'll throw some comments out here as well.

You'll need to think about why you want to go with a NWG vs. a Coote.

Do you want the versatility of a KMG or other 3-wheeled grinder, but can't afford one?

Do you enjoy spending time building tools, or do you just want to get to making knives?

A KMG or similar class of 3-wheel grinder is what most makers ultimately want to have. It's versatile as Ray mentioned in that you can easily change from a 8 inch wheel to a platen to a slack belt to a small wheel, etc. Variable speed can be achieved by a couple of good quality step pulleys or by a variable frequency drive.

If you can't afford a KMG, there are a couple of other options. NWG is one, but there is also the EERF grinder (plans are available for download to build it yourself or you can buy a frame kit from Polarbear Forge). The key to getting a good quality machine from these build-it-yourself options is a) you have to be able to have good build skills and b) you have to put out the money for good quality wheels and pulleys (or VFD if you go that route). So while yes, you could scrounge for scrap tubing to build a frame you'll need a bandsaw to cut the parts to length, a drill press and tap & die set to thread holes for mounting hardware, and then spend about $300 on quality wheels and pulleys and possibly around another $100 or more on a 1HP motor or better to drive it. If you have some of the tools already to do a build, great, but if you don't, then you're looking at dropping more cash on the tools also.

And so this is the point where you need to ask, do I like to build tools, do I want to spend the time building a grinder when I could be making knives, and do I have the skill to build a quality product? Lots of people have been happy with the NWG or similar kits. But, as you've probably figured from the costs I've described, getting the quality parts together will cost you almost what a Grizzly or Coote will run.

If you don't want to build and don't want to lay down the cash for a KMG, then I would go with the Coote. It's a quality design, it allows you to flat grind or hollow grind, and variable speed can be achieved through step pulleys.

If you don't mind building, but ultimately want to buy a KMG, then I would look at the Craftsman 2x42 belt sander for around $135. There are a number of videos on youtube that discuss modifications for knifemaking. You do sacrifice some things that the better grinders have. For example, the speed. It's fast. But, that is also a complaint of the Grizzly. Second, it's a 2x42 belt, not a 72" belt. You will have a wider variety of grinding belt options in the 2x72 belts. But, there is a much wider selection of 2x42 belts than there were a few years ago. Better quality belts can be had from places such as usaknifemaker.com, trugrit.com, and supergrit.com. You will still have shorter belt life because of the shorter belt and faster speeds than a 72 inch belt, but that's a tradeoff for working with a grinder that was intended for woodworking, not metalworking.
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  #8  
Old 07-26-2012, 03:14 PM
andrewj1398 andrewj1398 is offline
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Thanks for all the input. It has helped me out a lot.
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  #9  
Old 03-30-2016, 04:01 PM
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Andrew Garrett Andrew Garrett is offline
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All the opinions offered are valid, but as a successful builder of a No Weld Grinder, I have some input.

More than a decade ago, I asked similar questions about grinder selection. Countless threads have explored the pros and cons of different grinders. I was told that I should just bite the bullet and buy a KMG (top of the line at that time)--that it would "change the way I work".

I still do not have a KMG..., and I'm cool with that.

With massive respect to Ed for his countless contributions to knifemaking and his selfless education of others, I have to disagree with one specific part of his commentary. No lathing or milling was required to make a good NWG. Careful drilling into the square pipe with a cheap Delta drill press purchased from Lowe's was all it took (Duralube assisted greatly with drilling). Everything lined up well and it tracks beautifully many years after completion. Nylock nuts and/or lock-washers solve every 'tightness' issue before it can even start. I used no thread-locker anywhere.

Prior to building my NWG from rusty scrap pulled from a junk pile, I used a Multi-Tool II two-wheel type 2x48" grinder. It was a good tool and it still does work in my shop, but I was never satisfied with a two-wheel. That is actually counterintuitive, as it seems that going from wheel to platen (like most two wheels allow) with no tool-arm changes would be easy. In the end, you just have to sacrifice too much with ergonomics for my tastes.

If you fancy yourself a craftsman with the wherewithal to make knives, I find it more than a little dubious that one should balk at building something as simple as a NWG.

Grab a farm-duty motor from Ebay, Tractor Supply, or Atwood's (1-3HP and 1750RPM), two three step pulleys, good wheels from Tracy or other reputable source, and you will have the basis of a very versatile machine.

Bear in mind..., I've seen several used high-end KMGs for sale over the years. I can't recall seeing a completed and used NWG on the market. They are cheap enough to keep when the financial sh_t hits the fan.


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  #10  
Old 03-30-2016, 04:04 PM
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Andrew Garrett Andrew Garrett is offline
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Ed,
I recall reading about a rolling platen on your website many years ago.

Are those still available? Where?


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  #11  
Old 03-30-2016, 04:44 PM
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Chris_Crawford Chris_Crawford is offline
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Hey Andrew, you are the only knifemaker that I've heard about who used a multi-tool attachment. I've been using one for nearly 15 years, and it's still going. I made a few modifications though.

I added an arm to extend the top wheel so I could run 72" belts. I added a piece of Pyrex for the platen. I stuck a 2HP treadmill motor with a variable speed controller up under the bench and ran a pulley up to the grinder so I can run it variable speed with the belt, or full speed with the bench grinder motor.

I would not recommend going this route, but I kind of pieced it together over time, and it works. I would love to replace it with a KMG though.

All of that to say, a good grinder may make things easier, but you can still turn out quality work even on something that is not so nice.

Here is a picture:


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  #12  
Old 03-30-2016, 06:01 PM
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Andrew Garrett Andrew Garrett is offline
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Chris,

It looks like you have the 2x36" version with the smaller contact wheel (before your mods--which are cool, BTW).

I'm guessing that with your contact wheel way up there, you are strictly a platen grinding guy.

Mine was the 2x48" with the 8" serrated contact wheel. I mounted it to the right side with the wheel out toward me and low at about a 40* angle. This let me hollow grind and use the platen in more of a horizontal arrangement (not ideal).



I like the way you overcame the horsepower limitations of your motor! lol! I might have to try that with mine.

These little Australian beauties are pretty cool in my book!


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Last edited by Andrew Garrett; 03-30-2016 at 06:04 PM.
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  #13  
Old 04-24-2016, 12:00 AM
damon damon is offline
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Originally Posted by adolfainsley8 View Post
A grinder is the center piece of a knife makers shop. They get used for everything. A good grinder with a few well chosen attachments can make your life soooo much easier and improve the quality of your work more than you can imagine. Get the best you can afford. If you can't afford much, then spend the least you can to get a working 2x72" and save the rest towards a pro grinder????



waleeed
I often think the same way.... get something thatll get you by, and save.....

id suggest not getting a cheap 2x72 before upgrading.... everyone ive seen do this NEVER upgrades, or they end up talking themselves out of it for decades.
I used a 1x30, and hand files for 4 years till I moved out of the apartment, and finally had a shop to even put a grinder in (also had a few local knife maker friends who would sometimes let me in to use their grinder on occasion).... then I got what I knew I was going to need. put it on credit card and finished paying it off 4 months later.

now the KMG 2HP beast with all the attachments I use most is for sure the center piece of my shop.
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Old 04-24-2016, 08:04 AM
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Andrew Garrett Andrew Garrett is offline
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Grinder discussions have been had in most of the forums here on TKN and elsewhere. I know of no other piece of equipment that inspires so many passionate opinions (though forges and anvils are also noteworthy).

Like most, I wrestled with this when I was starting out and I read all the wisdom I could find. In the end, I decided that there was actually only one consideration that really mattered...,
my control over where the abrasive made contact with steel.

I decided that if the tracking was good, if the speed was adjustable to my needs, if the horse power allowed me to grind the way I wanted to, and the steel turned into dust in a manor that I could comfortably control resulting in blades I was proud to call my own and hand to a new owner...,
the rest was academic.

There isn't a best answer for everyone, but their might be a best answer for each of us.


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