A crazy question

[ckwatson]

I know this is probably a crazy and silly question but I am going to ask it any way. Also I know it would be easer to just buy some park #50 but lets pretend that is not an option for some one just starting out and seeing if they like this hobby

I am working with some 1095 and have read many different things about it. But I think I have come to the conclusion that water or brine is too fast and will crack the blade, canola oil is to slow and you will get a mix of pearlite and martensite and not reach the full potential of the steel. I know people have made both methods work, but this seem to be the arguments against the two methods

So my question is what if you could combine the two and and get some thing that would be right in the middle. I know what your thinking "water and oil don't mix", but you can emulsify the two, think Italian dressing. If you could mix canola oil and some white vinegar (you would definitely need a respirator) You could heat up your mix hit it with a stick blender and then quench.

Is there any way this could be better than one or the other on its own?

[Ed Caffrey]

My instincts tell me that it would be more trouble than it's worth to try....but on the other hand, you never know until you try.
What it will take is.....a LOT of trial and error, LOTS of ruined steel/blades, and LOTS of time and effort on your part. That's the "nature of the beast" when it comes to figuring out what will or will not "work" in Bladesmiting/knifemaking.

Although there is a faction out there who advocates that the written texts on steel and heat treating is the final word, I can tell you from 25+ years of experience, it just isn't so. All those books are nothing more than a starting point...following them to the letter, and treating them as "the Gospel" is nothing but a fools errand. If you were to follow the "books" and never go beyond them, you will likely get "passable" results, and if an individual is satisfied with that, then it's OK. I'm not.

Be cautious of what you read/hear on the various knife forums....I have come to realize that most of the knife forums these days are inundated with what I call "arm chair experts"....people who have read a few posts, or heard word of mouth, and have little or no hands on experience. They very often take information they have read or heard, and start passing it off/around as fact.
I will give you the same advice that I give all of my students.... Do not take anybody's word when it comes to steel and heat treating...including mine, until you prove or disprove it for yourself. I will never intentionally steer anyone wrong, but I certainly do not know it all either.

Personally, I refuse to use 1095 steel, as I simply cannot trust it....it varies from batch to batch, and sometimes from bar to bar within the same batch.....meaning that sometimes it will harden with little or no problem....and other times it simply will not harden. While some use/like it, it has no place in my shop or my knives.

If you want to make things as simple as possible, with the best chances for early successes, choose a steel such as 1080 or 1084, or possibly even 5160. Any of those will be very "forgiving"... meaning that you can make some minor mistakes along the way, and still achieve an excellent blade. Plus, by choosing one of those, you simply need a very light weight oil as a quench.
So, it comes down to choices.....you can either choose to stay with 1095, and go through the time and effort necessary to make it work as you want, OR, you can choose a different steel, very likely have early success, and then, as you gain experience, you can tackle the 1095 issue.

[WBE]

What Ed said. I found the same as he with variation in 1095, and have the same opinion of it. The only thing I use it for is making fire strikers for flint and steel kits, and I quench it in brine for that purpose.

[Doug Lester]

What it comes down to is that not all 1095 is created equal. If I were to go back to 1095, I would get mine from The New Jersey Steel Baron run by Aldo Bruno. He had a melt of 1095 made up for knife making and it has enough manganese to retard phase conversion long enough for a fast oil to miss the nose of the cooling curve. The last time I use 1095 I had to use brine to get a good hardness to the steel. I'm assuming that I missed the nose of the curve with the with the brine and didn't have a slack quench. Ed, and a few others, have to means to have their test blades microscopically examined for crystal type. Most of us don't. We are pretty much stuck with what the data sheets and the text books tell us. What Ed said about using a reliable steel makes sense but, being that you have the 1095 already, you might as well see what you can do with it. I do recommend that you pick another steel when it comes time to replace what you have. He made some very good recommendations.

Another steel that you could try is 9260. It is similar in heat treating to 5160 but is not quite as deep hardening, though it is a lot deeper hardening than 1060 which you will get a slack quench on. The only place that I know of that sells it in small(er) lots is Admiral Steel.

Doug

[DwaneOliver]

May I make a suggestion.....

Try some transmission oil , or used motor oil.
Its pretty fast , DONT breath the fumes , have a fire ext ready just in case.

I know what it was like to be on a budget.

AND , I completely agree with what Ed said about 1095 being very inconsistent...pisses me off too , cause I got a bunch of it.

Go to 1084 or 5160 its very forgiving during the HT.

Dwane

[WBE]

Ahhh, acually, motor oil and ATF are pretty slow in their cooling rate, and should not even be cosidered for 1095. ATF will get get you by with some steels, but there are better quenchants available. Motor oil is good for, well, motors.

[DwaneOliver]

Well WBE.......I never said it was as fast as Parks 50 , which would be the best choice for 1095, I said it was " pretty fast" . Its faster than canola oil I'm sure.
We know there are better quenchants that are avalible, the question was what would be the best on a buget without spending $130 on Parks 50.
How about used Vegtable oil ?
I know an AS that used spent veg oil from a resturant for his JS test blade and passed with flying colors ( on 1095 ) its all about the whole process. NOT just the quench. If the steel is the best it can be BEFORE it goes to the quench and treated properly after the quench....it can be great.

And your right about motor oil being good for motors.......and painting board fences : )

[WBE]

"Pretty fast" is a very relative term. Testing results I have seen shows canola oil, which IS a veggie oil, as the fastest oil off the grocery shelf, and ATF rates as medium speed, with decent, not great, but decent results on steels such as 01, but certainly not adequate for 1095. Motor oil is totally useless for that steel. You are correct about the condition of the steel before quench, but with 1095, if you don't beat the pearlite nose in the quench, your pre-conditioning is pretty much null and void. Even Parks #50 is a compromise, and does not bring 1095 to it's max. Only close unless the blade is very thin. Though it may have worked for your friend, to use 1095 for the JS test is folly inviting failure. There are better and easier steels to work with for that test. 5160 comes to mind.

[metal99]

I did some playing around with canola oil and 1095 with some pretty good results. The only tests I have done though we're the file test, wire cutting and destruction. The grain looked pretty fine except towards the spine. The canola oil cools it fast enough to get most of the blade hard. So I decided I will use the 1095 for knives that I want a hamon on. I have yet to crack a blade or have one not harden with canola oil. Yes the tests by many people clearly show that parks50, water and brine do harden them further but for the small blades canola is pretty good in my books.

[Doug Lester]

No one has said that 1095 will not quench in a faster oil, such as canola oil as an absolute statement. The issue is that the manganese levels in most of it out there is highly variable and you can all of a sudden find yourself having to change your heat treating routine because of it. It's the unreliability from lot to lot that's a turn off for many, especially those who rely on their knives to provide a good part of their income. It goes way beyond a irritation for them. I too have experience 1095 that will not harden adequately in oil and had to resort to brine.

Doug

[metal99]

Ya that's another huge factor. I did my first 1095 blade in canola twice and didn't get the results I wanted or had with my test peices. I ended up water quenching it and now the hamon line is way higher up then when I used the canola oil. If a make a larger quench tank I might be able to pull it off with canola oil but there's not quite enough room for the "chopping" agitation I think it needs in canola oil.

[EdStreet]

Try a super lightweight gear oil like cutting fluid, hydralic fluid etc. something with a VERY low viscosity.

This subject has been beat to death recently on numerous boards on metal chemistry.

As for the quench fluid you can save yourself lot of headaches and call maxim oil and buy a 5g bucket of #50 oil for $92.01 plus shipping (was $26 to ship to me from their office in texas) for a grand total of $23.60 per gallon.

One thing you will learn about substitutes is yea they can work, yes you do not know what impurity additives are in the product and yes many factors can and will make one big screw up and/or accident.

[Tai Google]

Coming in a little late here but,?

Ed has made some very good points.

A few things on the non quench specific oils:

Vegetable oils are faster than any of the mineral or petroleum based oils, because there is virtually no vapor jacket stage and no need for cooling rate accelerator additives. This makes them more comparable to the accelerated (fast) petroleum based engineered quenching fluids. In any of the studies I?ve come across, the vegetable oils are tested without agitation, likely because there is no vapor stage to speak of.

The studies also conclude that they shoud be acceptable for difficult to harden crack sensitive steels, according to cooling curve analysis.

Canola is not the fastest vegetable oil but it has relatively high stability, which means it last longer before it starts to degrade,? but not as long as the petroleum based oils.

With 1095, canola should be adequate for thin stock, 1/8 inch thick or less and get hardnesses within ?industrial standards?. Some say up to 3/16, but this could depend on other factors mentioned as well.