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  #61  
Old 06-29-2017, 07:05 AM
Ta2bill Ta2bill is offline
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Museum pics

Not great photos, but it will have to do.
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  #62  
Old 06-29-2017, 07:09 AM
Ta2bill Ta2bill is offline
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My personal blades

Just a couple of mine
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  #63  
Old 06-29-2017, 07:59 AM
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I think this is the one off eBay you are referring to Joe. You are right, that Orlando blade probably is 3 bolt. Both holes are a different location than the Solingen. Interesting...



Top photo Orlando stamped blade It's the one that's been on eBay for some time, starting at 21k now at 16k. I think it was once on an auction with a reserve and only reached 6k.
The bottom photo is the Solingen that just sold on eBay for11.6k.


Last edited by samg; 06-30-2017 at 04:03 PM.
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  #64  
Old 06-29-2017, 08:07 AM
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Here are the ones Bill posted. Interesting some had holes, some not. Different batches obviously.




Last edited by samg; 06-30-2017 at 04:08 PM.
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  #65  
Old 06-29-2017, 08:57 AM
crutchtip crutchtip is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samg View Post
I think this is the one off eBay you are referring to Joe. You are right, that Orlando blade probably is 3 bolt. Both holes are a different location than the Solingen. Interesting...



Top photo Orlando stamped blade It's the one that's been on eBay for some time, starting at 21k now at 16k. I think it was once on an auction with a reserve and only reached 6k.
The bottom photo is the Solingen that just sold on eBay for11.6k.

I don't know that knife sold. From what I understand, it may have been a bogus auction.
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  #66  
Old 06-29-2017, 09:55 AM
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Its still listed, with 22 watchers. It is an odd listing. The seller has basically clothes and shoes for sale in other items averaging about $10. Then the knife itself has several backgrounds in the listing, which can be a red flag, yet the seller is at 850 feedback, all clothing, shoes as seller, and it seems cosmetics etc as buyer, so seems to be a female. Who knows, maybe it was her dad's, she inherited it and is trying to sell it.

Listing:. http://m.ebay.com/itm/282532576033?_mwBanner=1
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  #67  
Old 06-29-2017, 10:19 AM
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Though it's not related to this thread, in searching for photos of white tenite military models, I came across this M18 that catches my eye very time I see it. The name etching is outstanding, and the block lettering and numbers on the hilt. It's an awesome package.
This one is in Hunts book. So for those of you who haven't seen it, here you go.




Last edited by samg; 06-30-2017 at 04:11 PM.
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  #68  
Old 06-29-2017, 11:22 AM
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Jacknola Jacknola is offline
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The first picture Bill posted shows a m15 Solingen 1st gen ricasso stamped blade blank with three drilled holes. (second picture upper left that Sam posted).



The second picture from Bill shows a m14 Solingen, 1st gen, ricasso-stamped blade blank with three drilled holes. Of course it is unknown whether those holes were drilled in Germany or at the shop. We don't have a 1st gen Solingen Tenite handled m14 with 3 screws to compare the blade blank to, so I thought I would overlay the blank with the kit-ivory handled m14 Ronnie posted. (It is constantly amazing how often off-hand data rolls back into the major narrative...)



Very interesting results especially given the similar asymmetry of the hole spacing. First indications could be that 1st gen Sollingen ricasso stamped blades were imported with three holes in the tang. In my experience, craftsmen, machinists or leather workers, etc., do not like to just be given a general direction and be left to wing it. That rarely if ever happens in industry or a manufacturing shop. Usually the manufacturing directions are specific, "drill such and such so many inches from such and such;" or "apply blade stamp this way," or "stitch sheath that way," etc.

Now lets compare these two examples to a number of 1st gen m14 ricasso-stamped Solingens with 2-screw Tenite handles.



Of course we should keep in mind the natural variations finishing these knives by hand which could mean different tang-end shapes, lengths, etc. Still this result is also interesting.

What does this mean and is it important? Well, knowing whether original Solingens were drilled in Germany could shed some light on the sequence of ordering Solingens in the 1950s. And it could shed some light on the way the shop operated, if we could look underneath one of those green Tenites and see how many holes are in the tang.

If there are multiple unused holes, it would indicate a drilled tang from Germany, and additional holes drilled at shop.

No unused holes could indicate that all holes were drilled at shop as needed, or a change order was sent to Germany, or several different orders for 1st gen Solingen blades were made, changing the estimate of how many 1st gen knives were made, etc.

It would be interesting and who knows what deductions could be made or how the info could intersect with other data. Other than that, it is probably trivia because I doubt any completed Solingen 3-screw m14 white Tenite knives exist ... If there are m14 3-screw white Tenite handles, they are likely to be Orlando blades and I would think only a very few prototypes were made.

Last edited by Jacknola; 07-24-2017 at 11:49 AM.
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  #69  
Old 06-29-2017, 12:17 PM
crutchtip crutchtip is offline
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I mentioned previously that Pete said they were drilled in Germany. Again, it may not mean all of them, and that could be what we see in some of the photos posted with no holes on raw blades only.

I have taken off handles on tenite knives that have had unused holes. Generally on these knives the holes IIRC were asymmetric with the handle off.

It is clear some of the early German blades were drilled in Germany. I guess the question most are asking is how long did it initially last, and if at some point stopped, did it start again.

It would seem to me that it would be far easier and my guess not a significant expense to have them drilled in Germany upon manufacture.

Also look on page 122 of Pete's book at the Solingen Astro sans scales. Three hole no question. the Orlando Ariman on page 107 also. Then on page 123 the Gemini Bowie Axe has three.
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  #70  
Old 06-29-2017, 12:18 PM
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I agree with your thesis Jack. I'm beginning to believe that ONLY the early prototypes had 3 holes (opinion based at this time as no 3 hole Solingen have surfaced)
I think the knife Ronnie owned possibly was one of their solingen blades offered in the 1962 catalog. Check out the similar slightly off center middle hole on both. Ronnie's is a bit longer with the thong hole, though they both scale about the same.





Another interesting observation, the knife pictured below, was developed for the Gemini space program, notice it's micarta, and it's 3 holes. Perhaps Bo wanted to make sure the handles were over secured for military review and use on the prototypes M14-15 and Gemini Bowie. This Gemini Bowie prototype was made in April 1964.


Last edited by samg; 06-30-2017 at 04:17 PM.
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  #71  
Old 06-29-2017, 12:24 PM
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Joe, did you happen to take any pictures of those handles with the tenite handle off?
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  #72  
Old 06-29-2017, 12:44 PM
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Jacknola Jacknola is offline
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Well, I guess we can come to a conclusion with Joe's comments and solid references, and Sam, Ronnie, and Bill's raw data, pictures, and observations.

Sam, my opinion is that ALL the 500 m14s and 500 m15s 1st generation ricasso-stamped Solingens had holes drilled in Germany because they all were delivered presumably within a few months of each other. To change the manufacture and contractual specs of those 1,000 knives after production had started would be almost unheard of.

What this means is you will probably find five holes or so drilled in the tang of every one of those m15 and m14 Tenite-handles, 1st generation Solingen knives.... if you took the handle apart.



(Note: this assumes there was only one 1st generation Solingen order... the original for 500 each m14 and m15s. This was my deductive conclusion in the vintage 14 line.. and the reasons are listed there based on sales of combat knives during this peace-time period. If there were additional orders, that would change several things including estimates of how many green-Tenite handled 14s-15s were made.)

Let me summarize...

March, 1954 - Mr. Randall had meeting with USNavy, provided detailed blueprints and model knives. USNavy ordered 10 m15s (no m14s?) for testing based on detailed blue prints. These blue prints presumably called for 3-screws securing the tenite handle.

May, 1954 - USNavy test models finished and shipped, presumably using three-screws securing the handle as per the blue print specs. The 1st generation Solingen order was placed. New catalog was published, with first offer of Solingen m14 and m15s.

May, 1954 (cont) - One or more m15s and m14 Orlando-made blades were sent to Germany to be used as prototypes for the Solingen order. These prototypes were made at the same time the test examples were made for the USNavy presumably to the same blue print specs...

Dec, 1954 - Shop received first installment of the Solingen order for 500 m14s and 500 m15s Solingen blades, ricasso stamped....

DEDUCTION: these blades were delivered with three holes drilled in the tang and the thong hole drilled at the end of the tang. This is presumably because the prototype Orlando blades sent in May had three holes, which in turn was because the blue print specs provided to the USNavy called for three screws securing the handle.

...1st generation Solingen batches continued to be received until Spring, 1955 (?). First production of customer-ordered Solingen blades was in January, 1955 (?). All customer orders, Orlando or Solingen, were constructed with white- (and later green)Tenite, 2-screw handles. 2-screw handles on Solingen knives necessitated additional holes be drilled in the tang at the shop...

Early 1963 - last of original Solingen 1st gen, ricasso-stamped blades used up, new orders placed in Germany and additional orders placed periodically thereafter. New supply did not have same ricasso stamp, (the ricasso was later stamped with the word "Stainless ," if it was a stainless steel blade. Stainless Solingens were probably was not ordered until a couple of years later). Etched Randall trademark introduced. Thong hole on blade tang not drilled in Germany. Holes probably/possibly not drilled in Germany though this may have been a later spec.

I think this is the probable sequence, and it makes sense from manufacturing, and business practices. Until proven otherwise, I'm going with this sequence. Thanks men... now to catalog up all the known pictures of white-Tenite handled knives. It might be a while before I do this.. because unlike Delrin, I don't own any white-Tenite.

Last edited by Jacknola; 07-24-2017 at 11:15 AM.
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  #73  
Old 06-29-2017, 07:29 PM
william768 william768 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crutchtip View Post
I don't know that knife sold. From what I understand, it may have been a bogus auction.
Agree , i sent 8 Ebay messages with questions to seller . Heard nothing back . Knife sold on eBay a while back and this new guy ( Ebay ID dani93089 ) selling it uses exact pics and knows very little about White Tenite knife . Seller has a whole 33 feedbacks and has not sold a single thing on eBay for 1 year.

The guy with the $7,000 bid i believe i know and have bought a knife from . That 7k bid is likely legit the other 2 that went on a bidding war to $11,600 are not .
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  #74  
Old 06-29-2017, 09:21 PM
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William, Joe was referring to the white tenite that has been a buy now for over a year. You are referring to the one that just sold last week and is the subject of this thread.
This is the current one on eBay buy it now
http://m.ebay.com/itm/282532576033?_mwBanner=1

Sam

Last edited by samg; 06-29-2017 at 09:24 PM.
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  #75  
Old 07-24-2017, 11:53 AM
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Jacknola Jacknola is offline
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This line has been restored for posterity ... It will be a slow process but I'll do the Delrin line next, then the vintage 14, then probably the "magic Randall" then blade stamps, then Dating Bowies.

I hate photobucket. They have destroyed years of research. You should read the anger on boards devoted to stamps or coins or rugs. I would hunt the people who did this down if I had my way.
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