Met a knife maker the other day...

[Jacktheknife]

Gentlemen,


I met a real good knife maker who has even been to knife making school! I talked to him for ten minutes and had learned as much as would have taken me years alone. He told me how to correctly set up my Grizzly over the phone and since it is hot summer and he is 71 years old trying to get three rent houses fixed up and rented
{I offered to help} he had to go; but I have found another knife making mentor within walking distance of my house. He said he would come out and help get me going.

Now I asked him about beveling or tapering the blade from 'handle to point' and 'back to edge' and that this is the last skill I have to learn before I can go on making knives as I can pretty much do everything else. I've 20 blades on the table in the den profiled, drilled and hardened/tempered, ready to get beveled. They have been there a year as I am just reluctant to ruin them all learning how to make a blade look like a real store bought blade! Last year when I tried to bevel 5-6 skinners I wasn't doing it right and couldn't figure out why.
I've a knife buyer ready to buy knives and hunting season isn't that far off! I met this guy just in time but as I said he is busy for a month or two.

My question: Now Old Ray Rodgers told me: that 'the line' between the flat handle steel and the beveled part, that line where the flat ends and the beveling begins along the blade itself, that changing of the pitch of the blade from flat to beveled, which is so perfectly ground in some of the pictures I have seen here there is a visible line!
Ray said that there are no jigs, props, helpers that it is done by eye alone!

Now I have been letting that digest since I sent 12 rail road spike knives to my buyer last year. Meeting the knife maker and having him help me with my grizzly set up has inspired me to get back on the problem that has had me stuck, and I have or will soon have a mentor to show me how.
How can one grind what one can't see? and so perfectly?

Old Stan was telling me about taking a file used to sharpen chain saws and getting the plunge cut started before hardening. Then as he had to go he was starting to tell me about taking the chain saw file and some vise grips and clamping it on, behind the platform of my Grizzly, using it for a rest/gauge/guide/ or spacer in order to bevel the blade perfectly.
He mentioned scribing the blade along the middle longways and grinding below but not above. Scribing the blade in half and grinding towards the point but not behind the scribe towards the handle.

But as I said he had to go and it may be a couple of months before I can catch him and get him out to the farm here.

Does anybody have any idea what he was getting at? A saw file and vise grips as a rest? Ever heard about this anywhere? Did I hear him right?
That's the question and I'll shut up.


Thank you...


Jack the Knife

[Gary Mulkey]

Something that will help you in making a good plunge cut (where the bevel meets the ricasso) is to round over the edges of the platen on your Grizzly. If you use a j-flex type belt then it will follow the rounded edge if you adjust the belt to extend past the edge of the platen and will give you a good plunge cut. I do all of my grinding free hand and will go from the tip of the blade back toward the plunge cut so that I can stop the bevel on side two to meet side one. It will take a little practice but you can get it.

Good luck & keep us posted.

Gary

[Ray Rogers]

Sounds like he was intending the chainsaw file to be used as some kind of stop or guide for the blade. Generally, I wouldn't be in a hurry to clamp anything to a Grizzly, seems maybe a bit dangerous, but I'm not sure exactly what he had it mind. What I am sure of is that it isn't strictly necessary since most guys manage to grind without any help from external devices on their grinders, just takes practice. Practice is exactly what you need Jack, and it's exactly what you may never get if you continue to insist as in years past on making large batches of knives at one time. You're frozen in place because, quite simply, you won't make a knife for fear of failing to make it perfectly 20 times (or 90 times if I remember correctly from a few years back).

Grind a blade Jack! I know you have ground blades before, but make just one. Just profile a piece of steel and grind the blade. You'll have little money in it and a couple hours time. Didn't come out well? Do it again...and again...and again....one at a time and I can all but guarantee that long before you get to 20 you'll start to see improvement, you'll start to understand what to do to get the grind to come out as you wish. Then, when you tell us "this happened, what went wrong?" we can try to give an answer and you can go back and see if that helps with the next blade - today. Not next year when you have brought all 20 knives up to some part of completion. After you know all you want to know about how to build your knives THEN, and only then consider doing batches. It will take a small miracle for you to get there the way you're trying to do things.

You know we love you Jack and we'll get you there but you have to help us by doing the practice, telling us what problem you have, and then doing it again - rapidly. Do a couple blades every day - one after the other, not in a batch - and we can probably have you grinding well in a couple of weeks ...

[mitchmountain]

A man could buy a machine to cut out blanks precisely from a computer program and lasers. He could then buy an expensive grinder and a hollow grinding jig and grind quickly some knives that look great. Drill the holes, send them out to be professionally heat treated and then glue on some some scales that have already been precisely cut. You could probably sell those knives and eventually turn a profit. And you could do all of that fast, but there would be nothing learned, no skill involved and absolutely no artistry or pride in that work. Or you can burn through a bunch of belts and scrap steel, take time and ask questions on this site. You could travel and go see other makers who are better than you and spend time watching and listening and you could learn a real skill and learn to find what works best for you and yo can learn to express yourself through your work. This takes time and is tiresome and is the only way to produce anything of true value worthy of being handed down from generation to generation. I started almost two years ago and am just now producing some work I deem worthy of signing my name to and accepting money for, and I'm sure not going to turn a profit anytime soon. Good luck and take your time, it is worth it.

Steve

[Jacktheknife]

Gentlemen,


If y'all think I'm dumb... listen to this!
Stan hasn't been out yet but I went out to the Grizzly, looking at it wondering what Stan meant by 'my Platen isn't set up'. Remember I was asking about beveling and he was talking about the Platen {'A flat plate which receives pressure'}
My Grizzly hasn't ever been set up at all! I realized the platform one rests on when grinding was here and the only place where the platen backed up the sanding belt was the upper bent part, way above the platform! My platen was not parallel to the belt but the lower part was way back from the belt. I found the two screws and adjusted it right. Where a piece of paper thickness is between platen and belt. I set the platform with a triangle square at 45 degrees from the platen. Then while doing that I noticed a wheel, turning it I realized it was for making the belt move to the right and left over the platen!

My Grizzly as never been set up right. After getting this done I have a nice platform to rest my hands on and the platen being aligned perfectly with the belt gives me an enormous area to grind on, the whole platen! I cranked up the grizzly and started beveling a skinner like a champ; and with the ceramic belts I saved all 5 blades I was having such a hard time with last year and I thought they were ruined. Not only that but I can move the belt to the right and left like a real knife maker!

Well one lives and learns. If I can achieve this there's no telling what I can do next; Get a photo of one of my skinners on the knife network forum, or learn to properly flesh a coon hide! The skies the limit.

Thank you for all the help y'all, I'm going back out there now.
I had rather grind bevels than drink beer.


Thank you...


Jack the Knife

[NorCal Nate]

If I were you I'd stick to the beer..... No seriously, congrats on figuring out how to adjust your platen! Like you said...the sky is the limit now. Now go do you some bevels son!

[Ray Rogers]

God Bless Jack, you're on your way now! For what its worth, the tool rest on the Griz is a pretty awkward mess and most guys don't even mount them. With a little practice you will find that you don't need to use it to support your hands while you grind. It can also be a little dangerous if you manage to get anything pulled into the space between the belt and the tool rest (notice it's called a 'tool rest', not a 'hand rest'). The tool rest is useful when profiling a new blade but you really don't need it for free hand grinding ...

[Ed Tipton]

Jacktheknife...There is one universal truth in life and that is to be good at something...really good...you have to "pay your dues" and start at the bottom and work your way up. There is also and old adage that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. If legitimate expertise could be bottled and sold it would be a priceless commodity, but true expertise can only come from making mistakes...and then hopefully learning from them. Few people are willing to start at the bottom. Most think that somewhere along the way they have acquired enough knowledge and expertise to justify a "short-cut" to the top. Rarely is that the case. The art of bladesmithing is a craft that is full of potholes and "traps" along the pathway. Only by trying to do it, and being willing to both succeed and fail, and willing to make mistakes is anyone going to navigate the pathway to successful bladesmithing.
The fact that you have been less successful than what you expect to be is not because you are dumb, it is because this artform is difficult to master, and your expectations are higher than can be justified. Making batches of "knife-like -objects" is not the same thing as making even one truly good knife...and it is a short-cut to developing bad habits. Better to slow down, take more time, and have the nads to try and do it perfectly. One knife done correctly will teach you more than several batches that are poorly done.

[Jacktheknife]

Gentlemen,


I appreciate y'all taking the time to help me 'do what I need to do' in order to make knives.
And yes, ['One at a time'] is going on my cork board right here..
I'm finishing up the five I was messing with last year this time and getting used to the new machine. One is done and before I bevel another I'll hand sand this one to perfection {I told y'all that they were already hardened and tempered} and put a handle on it, cleaning it up and setting it aside before I start another.
Finish all five 'one at a time' then go from there.

And yes, knowing a knife maker down the road will enable me to learn from him; to watch his style and his use of machines.
One at a time Hamilton!


Thank Y'all...


Jack the Knife

[Jacktheknife]

Gentlemen,


I have realized how one can 'see' where the plunge cut is on the other side of the blade; how one can indeed: "sand what one cannot see!" and that is a 'notch' one makes {hopefully before hardening next time} at the plunge cut. you can see it from both sides. So I'll have to use the grizzly belt edge to make notch/plunge cuts till my hardened blades are all finished; {One at a time of course} then I'll mark the plunge cut notch with a file on annealed steel, and till then be learning how much more work can be done around that plunge cut before hardening.

I'm hand sanding #1 and will handle it pretty soon. Using Elmer's to glue the sandpaper to the wooden blocks as I'm out of spray adhesive and money for 4 more days. The first few knives as they are trial blades, are not my favorites just small skinners, hand size & 3/32".


Thank you...


Jack the Knife

[NorCal Nate]

I use a sharpie to mark where I want my plunge lines on the spine , sides, and where the edge will be. I don't think you need to glue your sand paper to your sanding block... Seems a waste of time. When I start my plunges I make my cuts shallow and deep so I have my "grooves". Then on the next passes I go at a steeper angle. Use the edge of your belt to line up your plunges... If you want a angled plunge then angle your blade up to the belt. Ditch the glue dude! ~Nate

[Jacktheknife]

NorCal Nate,


Howdy Nate, the only knife maker I ever saw apply auto body sandpaper to a {he uses metal blocks}sanding block, used spray adhesive which was great as it dried in minutes! I like spray adhesive too but ran out. I had some Elmer's which takes two days to dry but that's all so I just got after it.

Now my question is: How can one use auto body sandpaper without gluing it to a sanding block or were you just commenting on the Elmer's which I already know isn't the right adhesive to use. If there's a way to sand without a block...?
or did you mean on your Grizzly? Finish work on that devil?
Help!


Thank you...


J. Knife

[NorCal Nate]

Ive never used auto body sand paper, only good quality regular sand paper.. but i make the piece big enough that it goes around three sides of my sanding block so I can hold it secure. We burn through so much sandpaper that it seems a waste to take the time to watch the glue dry. I use hardwood blocks, not soft wood.
~Nate

[Jacktheknife]

NorCla Nate,


'Hardwood', much better than my 1"x2"'s and I will learn how to get the hang of the sandpaper 'folding over' technique, it is logical.


Thanks...


J. Knife

[NorCal Nate]

In general building/construction 2x4s have rounded edges which will not get your sandpaper in your plunge line to clean up. And they are softwood. Get a block of oak or something with shaper edges not rounded.
And also when I first started making knives I would try and make batches...I stopped that nonsense real fast. Just focus on one at a time. I would rather make on knife every few months than a batch every few years .. Just my .02$
~Nate