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The Outpost This forum is dedicated to all who share a love for, and a desire to make good knives, and have fun doing it. We represent a diverse group of smiths and knifemakers who bring numerous methods to their craft. |
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#16
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I'd be careful with any blanket statement on what steel anything is made of since they are not all made by the same mfgr or process. Yeah, many springs were/are of 5160 steel, but just as many are not. Test for youself if not sure, it's not that hard to run the simple test Tai is suggesting.
Also, if you pay close attention when bringing the piece of steel up to forging heat and watch the color change and the "ghosting" thermal shadow creep down the steel, you can actually see most stress cracks and flaws manafested or highlighted as the shadow passes through them. Note: One thing that can give any steel a bum rap.......forging too cold! The steel may be just fine until you hit it below forging temps. Many beginners and even experienced smiths tend to want to get that last hit or two in before going back to the fire. That's all it takes to set the stress crack in motion. __________________ Carl Rechsteiner, Bladesmith Georgia Custom Knifemakers Guild, Charter Member Knifemakers Guild, voting member Registered Master Artist - GA Council for the Arts C Rex Custom Knives Blade Show Table 6-H |
#17
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Who dug up this old post? I've been lurking in the dark peacefully then I see my name pop up. Makes me want to call Dana and see what's up.
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#18
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How do leaf springs respond to stock removal methods ? I got 2 sets (used) I bought for an old Dodge truck and never put on, and no longer have the truck. I'm not set-up for forging but will build a charcoal forge to anneal and normalize if neccessary.
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#19
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mosparky, Go for it!
I did one of my first knives many years back by grinding a piece of leaf into shape with a 4 1/2 " angle grinder. It worked just fine and I managed to keep it cool enough that it held a good edge without heat treating. .... but when I saw how much metal I removed I decided to start forging and I've never looked back! __________________ Tracy |
#20
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So, I was on another forum, bladeforums.com to be exact, and I was asking about using some very large leaf springs that were given to me for making knives. Not one person had anything good to say about the springs. Now I'm very new to smithing but I have been reading and researching quite a bit and it seems to me that using ocs or ofs or whatever kind of spring you can get your hands on is quite common and acceptable. That brought me here, I thought it odd that what I had read and what they were saying was so contradicting. I did another search and I found this old thread and y'all seem to confirm what I read.
Is this really a controversial topic? Or is it like everything else, everyone has an opinion and no two opinions are the same? I just found it odd and being new to the world of smithing and knife making I would like some other thoughts and insights. Thanks ahead of time guys. |
#21
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As was most likely mentioned over on the BFs, if you want to learn forging cutlery, thermal cycling, etc., start with a simple known quality blade steel such as 1084. Get the basics down solid so that you can consistently reproduce quality blades. Then start experimenting with the more complex steels and mystery steels. You will learn faster and will also learn to understand why/whathow there are differing views on the subject.
Stated before several times - not all springs are created equal or of the same alloy and all are subject to a lot of stress if used. Unless you are close and have access to an accomplished bladesmith that knows the ins and outs of mystery steels, you are going to have a seriously steep learning curve. Sure, you can teach yourself. Just make sure you keep it fun or you are in for some serious frustrations. ps - I know a lot of bladesmiths over on BFs that have/do/and will continue to work with leaf springs. If you were to "search" and read everything on springs over there, you would see your "blanket" statement is incorrect. There has been a tendency for shouting, pushing and shoving on BFs that you do not see often here on KNF, however, there is a good bit of overlap between members (go figure). __________________ Carl Rechsteiner, Bladesmith Georgia Custom Knifemakers Guild, Charter Member Knifemakers Guild, voting member Registered Master Artist - GA Council for the Arts C Rex Custom Knives Blade Show Table 6-H Last edited by Crex; 12-16-2013 at 04:10 AM. |
#22
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I think it pretty much depends upon the individual and what his individual goals are. If you're just experimenting around and not seriously interested in getting the absolute best knife out of your steel, then mystery steel might work for you...but...if you intend on taking up this hobby more seriously, then I do think that it would be better to invest in a good simple knife steel such as 1080. The leaf springs are available for little or nothing, and they are generally speaking, pretty forgiving. Even a beginner/nube has a chance of making a good serviceable knife, that will be tough and hold a decent edge.
For those who aim a little higher, the known knife steel will prove to be the better choice. For one thing, just getting help if you have questions will be much easier. Nobody wants to go on record with a recommendation if he can't be sure of what he's working with. With a known steel, help is available on this forum as well as others. I think that there is a tendency for newbies to think that the often recommended 1080 will produce a knife of lesser quality because it is regarded as a "simple" steel. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Leaf spring steel (5160) is generally thought of as a "simple" steel, and it is also capable of producing a fine blade...but if you insist on using leaf spring steel, you could have trouble finding help if you find you have any questions. Beginning with a known steel will enable the members of this forum to offer advice as needed, but telling us that you're using "leaf spring steel" really doesn't tell us anything beyond what it MIGHT be. We're still guessing at what it actually is...just as you are. |
#23
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Crex, thank you for the advice. Would it help to say that I called the engineer for the spring manufacturer and he confirmed that the springs were made of 5160? I'm going to assume this information is accurate and that he wouldn't lie to me and treat what I have as if it really is 5160. Maybe it will fail, but I'm okay with that. Like you said about having fun, I am having fun just getting the metal hot and hitting it with a hammer. I also took your advice and heated some up to look for micro-cracks and couldn't see any visible flaws. Then I banged some out and it seems to be doing nicely. I shared this information on the other forum, maybe it was missed or they thought it was unimportant? I'm not sure. I have had more than one person tell me that I should use a known steel and I appreciate that advice but I'm trying to keep expenses down to a minimum at the moment. I also feel that whether I use this steel or buy some I am gaining valuable knowledge either way just by going through the steps. That being said I would very much appreciate any advice on treating 5160.
Also, I have been jumping from forum to forum quite a bit because I am new and trying to get a feel for each so I haven't really delved deeply into any one forum yet. I didn't mean to make a blanket statement about the entire BF forum. I was only talking about that particular thread. I'm sure the members over there are very knowledgeable and helpful. Now that you mention it I probably should have searched deeper into that forum, but I took the easy route and google gave this thread early in the search. Ed, I am at the experimenting phase. Right now blacksmithing in general is just a hobby I enjoy. I just started and later on when I feel like I can make decent blades I'm sure I will invest in higher quality/known steels, but, as of now I am willing to take my chances with what I have. At the very least I learn something from failure. Again, any advice on 5160, especially the process of heat treatment, would be appreciated. |
#24
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benmk1984...heat the steel until it is no longer magnetic...and then go just a little beyond that point. Try and ensure that the blade is heated as evenly as possible. When you have the blade at the proper temp. plunge it as quickly as possible into the oil (preferably pre-warmed to about 130-140 degrees). Listen closely for the dreaded "tink" that means the steel has cracked. Keep the blade in the oil until all color has been removed from the steel, and then remove it from the oil and wipe off the excess oil. Check the blade with a file to see that the file just skates across the steel, but does not "bite". If the file does not "skate", then repeat the above quenching procedure. Clean the blade with a wire brush or 3M scratch pad until it is at least somewhat bright and shiney, and visually inspect it very closely for cracks. After quenching, be sure that you do not drop or bump the blade since if it is properly hardened, it is very brittle.
After the cleaning and filing, try and get it into the tempering stage as soon as possible. Blades have been known to crack on the bench if left lying about after the quench. The blade can be tempered in a toaster oven or your kitchen oven. I usually wrap the blade in some aluminum foil to give it some protection from the direct radiant heat of the heating coils. Heat it at about 400 degrees for about 2 hours. When you remove it from the oven, check to see that the previously brightened areas are oxidized to a color of "pale straw" or in my case...about the color of beer. This is a very general procedure that should get you in the ballpark, but it is not intended to be a specific and perfect procedure for your leaf spring steel. Last edited by Ed Tipton; 12-16-2013 at 07:47 PM. |
#25
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Ed, thanks so much. That is very helpful information. Currently I am working with my father on making a belt grinder. Hopefully after the new year we will have it complete and then sometime after that, if all goes well, I'll be able to post some pictures. I really hope I don't hear the dreadful "tink" but either way I'm excited and looking forward to finishing my first knife!
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#26
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Never assume the leaf springs are 5160 !!! European and oriental ones used to be primarily 9260. But today they cou;ld be almost anything ! Do a few tests on small pieces before you do the blade.
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1084, 5160, advice, art, bee, blade, blades, common, cutlery, edge, forge, forging, hammer, hobby, knife, knife making, knives, make, making, post, simple, steel, teach |
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