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The Newbies Arena Are you new to knife making? Here is all the help you will need.

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  #1  
Old 04-04-2013, 01:33 PM
claymoore claymoore is offline
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Question quechent

Hey Gentlemen. I have used canola oil for quech and i think some people on here use it also. My question is haw long do you go before you throw out the old used oil and refill with fresh oil.
Thanks and have a great week
Clay
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  #2  
Old 04-04-2013, 05:14 PM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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Well, doesn't look like you're getting an answer so I'll throw in my two cents. I've never used canola oil but, in general, quenching oils can become burnt and lose some of their desirable properties. Even so, I've never changed my oil and I suspect that is true for a good number of us (not all, but quite a few). If you notice that your steel isn't getting as hard as it used to, that would be a clue. Other than that, just add fresh oil as the old oil burns away or pick some arbitrary point to change the oil - fresh oil after 100 quenches, or fresh oil once a year.....


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  #3  
Old 04-04-2013, 11:05 PM
claymoore claymoore is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Rogers View Post
Well, doesn't look like you're getting an answer so I'll throw in my two cents. I've never used canola oil but, in general, quenching oils can become burnt and lose some of their desirable properties. Even so, I've never changed my oil and I suspect that is true for a good number of us (not all, but quite a few). If you notice that your steel isn't getting as hard as it used to, that would be a clue. Other than that, just add fresh oil as the old oil burns away or pick some arbitrary point to change the oil - fresh oil after 100 quenches, or fresh oil once a year.....
Thanks Ray, i kinda had a feeling but i wanted to check with you guy first. In reality it's not a long guick w/in out ect.
But one question i just thought about while writing this Iuse about my steel i use 1095, 1085.
Some times i get more scale than others. Does this effect the work of the blade?
Sorry so long "you probably had to take a break" but i value your opinion. and experince. AND I FEEL I CAN SPEEK FOR A LOT ON PEOPLE. YOUR A 10 when they use that scale on women,lol. God Bless everyone on the forum, BIG GOD & little devil.
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  #4  
Old 04-05-2013, 09:26 AM
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I suppose the amount of scale might be an indicator of how much decarb has taken place. That wouldn't be the only thing it indicated but possibly the only thing that might affect the quality of the blade. Even if that is so, grinding off an additional 10 or 15 thou during the after HT clean up should pretty well fix that. That's one reason I like to do all my grinding after HT, gets past any mess there might be on the surface of the steel ...


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  #5  
Old 04-05-2013, 09:07 PM
claymoore claymoore is offline
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Originally Posted by Ray Rogers View Post
I suppose the amount of scale might be an indicator of how much decarb has taken place. That wouldn't be the only thing it indicated but possibly the only thing that might affect the quality of the blade. Even if that is so, grinding off an additional 10 or 15 thou during the after HT clean up should pretty well fix that. That's one reason I like to do all my grinding after HT, gets past any mess there might be on the surface of the steel ...
Tanks Ray, I agree and i do 85% of my grind now after heat treat. Also those tough grind lines can take time and effort to get them out post heat treat.
Clay
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  #6  
Old 04-06-2013, 07:02 AM
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Crex Crex is offline
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Rule of thumb on canola oil is replace when it gets a dark amber like good rootbeer. I tend to use it a bit longer with the 1084, but with 1095 it seems to have gotten a little slow at the amber stage and doesn't give consistant results.
Scale excess is an indication of over heating steel, both while forging and while doing heattreating.
This is not good for most blade steels due to grain growth from the over heating...especially with 1095.
Watch you temps more closely.


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  #7  
Old 04-06-2013, 01:16 PM
claymoore claymoore is offline
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thanks Crex, I think your on to something because when my paragon hit 1490 it went to soak for 5 min but the temp kept climbing. So i opened the door a couple of time to make it come down.
Would you care to tell me your temps and soak times for 1084, 1095, O1 that you use please.
Thanks
Clay
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  #8  
Old 04-06-2013, 01:32 PM
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Don't open the door on your Paragon like that. If you set the temp to 1490 it will get to 1490 but then it will climb another 15 to 30 degrees. After that, it will settle back and hover right around 1490.

As the temp goes up not all of that mass of brick heats at the same rate so the controller is designed to go a little past the set point and then fall back as the soak catches up. Opening the door just screws with the programming. For those steels, I think I use 1475...the oven climbs to about 1490 and then falls back and settles. It doesn't stay at 1490 long enough to do any harm and, in fact, probably never truly reaches 1490 over the entire oven (on my setting of 1475) ...


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Old 04-06-2013, 08:56 PM
claymoore claymoore is offline
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Originally Posted by Ray Rogers View Post
Don't open the door on your Paragon like that. If you set the temp to 1490 it will get to 1490 but then it will climb another 15 to 30 degrees. After that, it will settle back and hover right around 1490.

As the temp goes up not all of that mass of brick heats at the same rate so the controller is designed to go a little past the set point and then fall back as the soak catches up. Opening the door just screws with the programming. For those steels, I think I use 1475...the oven climbs to about 1490 and then falls back and settles. It doesn't stay at 1490 long enough to do any harm and, in fact, probably never truly reaches 1490 over the entire oven (on my setting of 1475) ...
Thank you Ray. it totally makes sense. I will set the temp 10 degrees lower. Also it gives me a little wiggle room. The reason i did it is, that was the only thing i could think of at the time.
2. QUICK QUESTIONS have you ever used 1095 and 1084 And forgot which was which, lol? The other question will they heat treat at the same temps?
Thank You and You have a great week.
Clay
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  #10  
Old 04-06-2013, 09:07 PM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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1095 and 1084 can be HTed at the same temps but the 1095 needs a faster quench oil than 1084 for maximum results. That means 1084 will work in a fast oil or a slower oil but 1095 really prefers the fastest oil available.

I never forgot which was which because I only make one knife at a time. But, if I did, I'd etch them with FeCl and observe the 1084 will (usually) achieve a real black where the 1095 will only go dark grey. As an alternative, finish out both blades - the 1095 will probably have a slicker finish that appears slightly more polished (even if you use satin finishes like I do and don't actually polish the blade) ....


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Old 04-06-2013, 10:54 PM
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Ray's spot on with the oven. Opening the door will only make the logic think it needs to go higher, then drop as it searches to resolve the issue of reaching the set temp. In other words, it gets lost. If you are concerned that the temp is not settling on your chosen set point, borrow someone's thermocouple and meter and do a check.
My understanding of quench procedures is the same. Gotta get that 1095 down past the nose fast. O1 does better with a faster quench as well, but requires a longer soak time (relative to blade dimensions and mass).

Mark you blades while you know what they are.


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  #12  
Old 04-07-2013, 11:18 AM
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SBuzek SBuzek is offline
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Marking blades is a must do.A cheap set of number dies from Harbor freight is a good way to do it.Just assign a different number to each steel and mark on the tang.
Also when your kiln reaches temp. let it soak for about 30 min. before putting your blades in.That will make sure your kiln is evenly heated and your temps. will be much more even.

Stan


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  #13  
Old 05-01-2013, 10:15 PM
claymoore claymoore is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Rogers View Post
1095 and 1084 can be HTed at the same temps but the 1095 needs a faster quench oil than 1084 for maximum results. That means 1084 will work in a fast oil or a slower oil but 1095 really prefers the fastest oil available.

I never forgot which was which because I only make one knife at a time. But, if I did, I'd etch them with FeCl and observe the 1084 will (usually) achieve a real black where the 1095 will only go dark grey. As an alternative, finish out both blades - the 1095 will probably have a slicker finish that appears slightly more polished (even if you use satin finishes like I do and don't actually polish the blade) ....
Thanks Ray you are very helpful you guys are alright in my book. Cex also AND I'M SORRY IF I FORFOT YOUR NAME AS YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE. GOD BLESS YOU AND YOURS.
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1095, back, blade, blades, dies, etch, forging, grinding, heat, heat treat, knife, make, post, steel, surface, tang, throw


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