Knives From Files (Not the Usual Questions)

[cbsmith111]

I stumbled on the website of a knife maker named Michael Morris http://www.michaelmorrisknives.com

He makes nearly all of his knives from Nicholson files. The thing that caught my attention was his description than his knives were "tempered to rcx". The way it was phrased led be to believe that he doesn't harden the steel but simply uses the existing heat treat and tempers them down to a usable hardness for a knife blade and then grinds the blade out of the tempered steel. I know there is always a lot of debate on how to heat treat this steel not knowing it's exact composition. I also know there are a few makers who grind their blades after the steel is heat treated. With the very little I know this seems to make sense to me. Could this be a way of getting around the amount of experimentation it normally requires to get a good heat treat from mystery steel? A good file should be harder than a good knife should be to begin with, and to me it would seem that it would be much easier to experiment and find the proper tempering temperature than it would to figure out the entire HT process. What do you think?

By the way, it looks to me like this guy makes some pretty good looking and interesting knives at a pretty reasonable price.

[WBE]

I agree to a point. The only problem is that hardened steel is hard to grind, but if one is willing to spend the time it does eliminate all but the tempering. Another plus is that if you will break the tip from a good file, you will see about the most perfect grain structure that can asked for. When I made file knives, I found that they require a little higher temperature than other similar steels to get a good working blade that was not brittle. 450? to 475? usually works very well. I would recommend the 475?, with a soft drawn spine.

[metal99]

That would work as long as the files are not case hardened.

[cbsmith111]

It certainly wouldn't be my preference, but I do know of several experienced makers who grind post heat treat. I certainly won't be trying it anytime soon as I don't have a belt grinder. I don't think using files to completely shap a knife from hardened steel would be very good for me or the files.

[metal99]

Your files would definatly suffer and so would your sanity haha

[WBE]

Originally Posted by metal99

That would work as long as the files are not case hardened.

Nicholsons are NOT case hardened, and you might be surprised that most of the Chinese files are not either, and have a plus 1% of carbon.

[metal99]

I was reading about files a while ago and somebody ran into some that wouldn't harden so that's why I threw that out there.

[Longshot]

I have used the same technique when making many of my file knives. I also agree with WBE on the tempering temperature for the files. I personally prefer to do two cycles on them, one being at 475 for an hour, then 450 for an hour, then let them air cool. Afterwards they act very much like a spring. Others may get different results, but that is what has worked for me.

[metal99]

Did a little digging and found that thread about case hardened files.

http://www.knifenetwork.com/forum/ar...p/t-58759.html

I did a little google search and I was surprised, there are quite a few people having problems hardening them.

The best way to tell if its through hardened or case hardened would be to bust it. Clamp it on the vice and try to bust the tip off it should snap if its through hardened and bend if its case hardened.

[AUBE]

Yup some files are just case hardened. I even had a needle file (cheap Chinese one) bend on me because it was only hard on the surface.

Also since I've moved to Asia I have come across some Nicholson metal files that were knockoffs(or Nicholsons quality took a sudden huge nosedive). Marked with a Nicholson logo, but the quality sucked. Not sure if they have made it to the US, but its something to keep your eye out for.

The first hardened knives I made were from files tempered back. They made great blades but on a personal level I'm not fond of grinding after heat treatment any more than I have to.

[metal99]

Post heat treat grinding scares me lol. Gotta have very good belts and keep the blade cool! I did one blade like that and I don't think I will do it again.

[GHEzell]

Originally Posted by AUBE

Also since I've moved to Asia I have come across some Nicholson metal files that were knockoffs(or Nicholsons quality took a sudden huge nosedive). Marked with a Nicholson logo, but the quality sucked. Not sure if they have made it to the US, but its something to keep your eye out for.

Buy a Nicholson file from your local hardware store, then buy one from MSC and compare. The higher quality of the one from the industrial supply will be obvious: thicker, deeper cut teeth, and higher quality heat-treatment. I am not sure if they are the same steel or not, but the one bought at Lowes will not last half as long as the one bought at the industrial supply.

[AUBE]

Originally Posted by GHEzell

Buy a Nicholson file from your local hardware store, then buy one from MSC and compare. The higher quality of the one from the industrial supply will be obvious: thicker, deeper cut teeth, and higher quality heat-treatment. I am not sure if they are the same steel or not, but the one bought at Lowes will not last half as long as the one bought at the industrial supply.

I haven't tried to buy one from MSC but I have bought some from industrial suppliers and noticed a difference compared to the ones at hardware stores.

The ones I;ve seen here in Asia are horrid quality. You know when you look at a cheap "round" file and the round portion isn't anything resembling round...more like a multifaceted oval shape. They are like that...and they have the Nicholson logo on them. I'm assuming they are a cheap knock-off. Hopefully they haven't made their way into the US.

[rockhound]

I recently bought two Nicholson's from the local hardware store.
One is Made in Mexico, the other Made in Brazil.... both seem fine so far.
They are outsourcing like an octopus.

[cbsmith111]

I work at an industrial supply company. I recently bought a set of 5 Nicholson black diamond files with the new ergo handles that we stock here. Three were marked USA, one Mexico, and one Brazil. There doesn't seem to be any visual or functional difference, but it's hard to say. I'm not saying you are wrong about the ones you buy at lowe's being different, but that's just not my experience. They have the same packaging and ID numbers on them as the ones we sell here. It's hard to say what goes on and where it goes on though.