410 vs 416

[Steven Kelly]

Ed and I talked about this earlier today, so, I thought I would toss it out here to see what you all think. The question is, "would you rather use 416 for guards and bolsters? Or do you only use it because it's available in bar stock whereas 410 is only available in plate?" With the lack of availability, and price of 416 going through the roof, at around $50 a foot, it makes sense to me to use 410 for my guards and bolsters. If I could make it available in say 3/16" X 1 1/4" X 12" bars and or 3/8" X 1" X 12" bars that have been water jet cut from cold rolled bright plate, would you all be interested in it as an alternative to 416? And yes, I do have matching 1/8" and 3/32" pin stock available for it!!!
I have been using it for all my culinary knife bolsters for about the past 6 months now and I am convinced it is what I will be using for the foreseeable future...

[J. Doyle]

Hi Steve. It's cool that you have a supply company now. I'm glad you're doing that.


If the 410 works like 416 as far as machining, sanding, polishing I'd be all for it. I've never used the 410 so I don't know. But you're using it. That's got to count for something, right?

Heck even if it's close for a much more available alternative at a cheaper price, I'd say go for it.

[Karl B. Andersen]

I'd rather use 303.
It's the machine grade of the austenitic stainless and more corrosion resistant than 416. I also find 303 takes a better finish.
That said, 416 has the advantage of being usable on a surface grinder.

[Ed Caffrey]

I'd rather use 303.

YOU ARE A VERY SICK MAN!

I'm gona be coming to your shop for lessons...cause I can't "work" 303 to save my life...honestly, I thought you were joking when I read that post.

[Karl B. Andersen]

Ed, don't confuse that with 304.
304 will break every drill bit and end mill in the shop. 304 is like playdough.
Which is what so many people make the mistake of buying because of its price, and then mistakingly suggest that "300 series stainless is impossible to work because it's so gummy", etc. Couldn't be further from the truth.
303 is just as machinable as 416 because of the addition of sulfur. I even find it turns, mills, drills and taps better and finer than 416.

For example, at Online metals, a 1/2" X 1" X 3 foot piece of 304 is $32.00.
Same size of 303 is $64.00.
Watch for one of my upcoming videos.

"Grade 303 represents the optimum in machinability among the austenitic stainless steels. It is primarily used when production involves extensive machining in automatic screw machines. Machinability Rating (compared to B1212) is approximately 78%.

303 is also available as a "Ugima" Improved Machinability grade, with machinability even higher than that of the standard 303."

From Wikipedia, "Type 303?free machining version of 304 via addition of sulfur and phosphorus."

Another one:
"303 is one of the most popular of all the free machining stainless steels. It offers good strength, corrosion resistance and great machinability. It will resist scaling at temperatures up to 1600 F(871 C).

Used in an incredibly wide variety of parts both in screw and general machining industries. Applications include hardware, fasteners, valve parts, nozzles and trim.

Excellent speeds and feeds are capable with this material. The addition of sulfur causes a very brittle chip. "

In fact, whenever you buy a lot of small screws and attachment/fasteners, etc., they're 303. That's because 303 is very cost effective in manufacturing because of the non-return rate of corrosion, and it machines well and is easy on equipment.

That said, you're welcome at my shop any time!
You don't even need an invitation.

[Karl B. Andersen]

And when it comes to a choice between 416 and 410, I would never choose 410.

"As for most other free-machining stainless steels the improvement in machinability is achieved in 416 by addition of sulphur which forms manganese sulphide inclusions; this sulphur addition also lowers the corrosion resistance, weldability and formability to below that of its non-free machining equivalent Grade 410."

Meaning that the difference between 416 and 410 is the same as the difference between 303 and 304 - machineability due to the addition of sulphur.
About the only difference between 303 and 416 is that 416 is martensitic, and 303 is austenitic.

[Steven Kelly]

Thanks for the comments Karl.
I have been using the 410 for bolsters and have found it very comparable to 416. As you said, the only difference between it and 416 is the addition of sulpher to increase machinability. The benefit to the 410 is that it is cold rolled bright plate as opposed to hot rolled scaled bar stock.
I have not had any issues drilling or reaming the 410. I have not however used it for guards yet because I forge most of my guards from 416 round bar which is very accessible to me because of all the rifle barrel manufacturers here in Montana.
I have not had to do any machining on 410 for slots etc.

[Karl B. Andersen]

When you look at the surface feet/minute machinability, you'll see:
303 - 150.
416 - 150. So, they have the same machinability.

410 - 95.
304 - 70.

[Karl B. Andersen]

I have forged many pounds of 416 from large stock - still have some.
But when I consider the time spent forging, fuel, descaling and machining to the correct thickness, I've finally said heck with that.
I'd rather spend my time making knives, so I just buy the bar stock and go to work making knives.

[Steven Kelly]

It may be a case where I continue to use 416 for the parts that I have to machine. And I use the much less expensive 410 for bolsters that are only drilled and ground.
I will do some practice machining on some 410 this weekend and let you know how it works out.. If it turns out to just be a matter of slowing down my feed rate a bit then it will still be very worthwhile to use the 410. Right now it is just a bit over a third the cost of 416....

[Karl B. Andersen]

Originally Posted by Ed Caffrey

YOU ARE A VERY SICK MAN!

I'm gona be coming to your shop for lessons...cause I can't "work" 303 to save my life...honestly, I thought you were joking when I read that post.

So, anyway, if you read those industry descriptions above, coupled with my own experiences, I guess one could understand why I don't understand why Ed would call me a "a very sick man" for using 303.
Maybe I'm the smart one in the bunch.

[DougCampbell]

Maybe Ed wasn't referring to your choice of stainless Karl sorry Buddy, couldn't resist, you know we love ya but you left too big an opening there.

I've done a fair bit of machining on 416 & 303 and not found much difference in either other than price like Karl already said. I haven't pinned any but was told getting pins for the 303 was tough. No experience with 410 yet.

[Ed Caffrey]

No offense intended Karl! Like Doug said, you left me a big opening, and I just had to rib you! You know I love ya man!!

I will admit that I tend to warn folks away from just about any of the 300 series SS for fittings....that comes from my experience critiquing knives for JS......most never get the scratches out......whether it's 303 or 304. We've all seen what looks like polished over 60 grit scratches....and I have seen a lot of that on knives.....and can almost always make the educated guess what the material is when I see those polished over scratches. That might be because those individuals just don't have the experience level to catch it, but it's routinely NOT seen with nickel silver, or even 416.

OK, as for me, I've only used a bit of 410, and would use more of it if I could find the pin stock, and/or find it in a thickness I use a lot (3/8"). 416 is just crazy on price, and availability these days is terrible. For the past year, all the 416 I've used has been forged down from larger round bar.

OK, Steve......find us some 3/8" thick 410!

[Steven Kelly]

I'm working on the 3/8".. It's easy to get up to a 1/4" thickness, but, a bit more of a challenge thicker than that.....

[boatbuilder]

How would 410 ss pins work on 416 ss. I have been looking for 416 pin material (1/8") and not having much luck here north of the border. I can find 410 ss (3/32") but not 1/8" though.
I have access to hundreds of pounds of 410 ss pieces. That bad part is that each piece is about the size of a bolster and is formed with a contour and will have to be forged flat.
I have tried the 304 ss and it was very hard on tooling.
Thanks for the info on 303 Karl and look forward to your thoughts after working some this weekend Steve.
Thanks
Jim