Optivisor or Microscope? Tool shopping question...

[Elkka]

Hi all. Its been a long while since my last post, but since then I have converted from a rotary tool to a GRS graver set up.

I have a limited budget and I have to decide between a few things. Of the following, which can I go "cheap" on and on which would you recommend I only spend top dollar:

optics: A) Optivisor or B) Microscope
Engraver's Block: A) Budget $250 block or B) GRS block
Graver Honing: A) Arkansas stones or B) GRS Hone
Cleaning: A) Ultrasonic cleaner or B) Steam cleaning machine

I can not afford to get everything in the B column, perhaps only one item, while everything else will have to be from the more budget friendly A column.

[Shakudo]

engravers blocks can be found on ebay for under $100 if you are not in a hurry and check the listings often.

you can get an ultrasonic cleaner for around $70 from rio grande . tank size 5.5W X 6.75L X 2.5 H inches. if doing only ocassional cleaning , a $30 espresso maker can provide steam.

[Elkka]

Hi Shakudo, I'm familiar with the cheaper vises, but my question is what is their performance in comparison to the pricier GRS models? Here is an example of the budget vise you are most likely refering to: Ebay Link

[Ray Cover Jr]

Elkka,

Optics

I don't Like optivisors. They give me a headache plus they cost way too much for what they are. I prefer a set of 5+ to 6+ diopter reading glasses. You can get a decent set in that strength on ebay for about $10 + shipping. If that does not give you enough magnification then try the scope. Might as well try the cheap route first to see if it will work for you.

Gravers block.

In all honesty these are very simple devices and fairly indestructable. You really have to get serious with a sledge hammer and C-4 to hurt one. I would not be afraid to buy a used one unless it has been left out in the rain and is rusted tight.

Now that being said. There are other new blocks on the market that are every bit as good as the GRS vises and may even be a bit ceaper. Vigor makes a really good one. Ray Letourneau also makes a really nice big block. You can see one on Steve Lindsays web sight. I think Steve even has a link to Ray's email so you can contact him. If you are doing large objects and a massive block is important to you I would give Ray's block a serious consideration.

Be very carful buying the cheap imports on ebay. I have seen some on there that only have one moving jaw. The other is fixed. That won't hurt you until you decide you want to do something more than an inch and a half wide. Might as well buy a vise with two moving self centering jaws to save you from buying another later down the road.

As far as the ultrasonic cleaner?? Not my area of expertise. I have never used one engraving knives or guns. Probably will have to have one of the jewelry guys give you advise on that part.

Ray

[Brian Marshall]

Hate to say it, but if you stay away from jewelry and engraving supply houses you can usually get a better price for things like Optivisors... Grizzly, and other tools suppliers generally have them on sale for around $20. I use both the scope and the Optivisors in 3 different powers. Hated them when I first started using them. That was back when I cared what I looked like... Don't get one of the Chinese look alikes like Harbor Freight sells though.

Also stay away from their 2 & 3 quart ultrasonics - the transducers are too weak to really clean much. We tried 'em, took 'em back the same day. Same thing Rio is now selling as their "economy" ultrasonic.

They do have a smaller ultrasonic that my students have been happy with for about $30. Doesn't have enough capacity, heat, or a timer - all of which are requirements in my personal studio.

Scopes can be had reasonably on the second hand market, I've bought and sold a dozen or so in the past year. You gotta know - or know someone who knows - what you're getting. Best advice comes from the guys who fix 'em when they break @ www.absoluteclarity.com. I use these guys and they are very, very good.

If you can get by with a diamond hone (knifemakers supply) and a Crocker holder for a little while longer, there is a whole new sharpening system coming out soon... maye even two of them? Arkansas will not work with the newer alloys like Carbalt.

Ray LeTourneau makes an exceptionally nice middle size block as well as a small one - besides the "Behemoth". I had him send one to Hawaii to test out. Two students ordered 'em. I just looked, and I have a couple "student grade" used blocks I'm willing to part with... email me for details.

Anyone need a Hermes pantograph? Got one of those to find a new home for too. Flatbed, motorized, parts and cutters still available from Hermes. Runs fine, comes with some fonts. Also a bunch of other stuff - including a steamer or two, but I bet the shipping is gonna be high...

Brian P. Marshall
Stockton Jewelry Arts School
2207 Lucile Ave.
Stockton, CA 95209
209-4770550
instructor@jewelryartschool.com
jewelryartschool@aol.com

[Elkka]

Thanks Ray and Brian for all the info.

Brian, in regards to the ultrasonic cleaners from Rio, do you refer to the $50 Dimondback or Rio's proprietary model which costs almost $200 more? And while I'm on ultrasonics, how long is a good one suppose to last before the steel tank disintegrates?

Dump the Arkansas stones? Even the Surgical Black is no good then? What store carries the diamond blocks, as I can't find them in the Rio catalog?

I would be interested in any used tools you may have on hand that are in good condition. Maybe I should forward my Rio Grande shopping list to you and see what you have that I can save some $$$ on?

[Elkka]

Another question I have is would it be conceivable to use my Flex Shaft to sharpen my gravers if I outfitted it with an appropriate disk?

[Brian Marshall]

Hi Ellka,

I have a couple of 30 year old ultrasonics that get used daily. Both have been in for new transducers about 5 years ago, so I guess that means that they lasted 25 years? I treat 'em right, change them every week, and the timer stops them from running for hours at a time. One came from Gesswein, the other from Swest. (Swest was swallowed up by another company) The makers were Vigor and Bransonic respectively.

The stainless tanks on both the 30 year old machines don't show any signs of wearing out so far. Here's a caveat though, 30 years ago cars were made of steel, look at 'em nowadays... some of the old equipment was better made than what you get now. These old machines of mine have steel cases and solid switches and dials. What I'm seeing on the new machines is a lot of plastic and flimsy looking switches and dials. If they are "made in USA", they look like they were assembled from imported parts. (Found out the motor in the GRS power hone is made in Mexico when I replaced it last week)

By the way, the stainless tanks themselves are available at any food service supply... disguised as the receptacles for food in steamer tables. Ever eat at one of those "All you can eat" buffet places? Take a close look at what the soups and sauces are kept in!

Yes, the low end versions of ultrasonics at Rio are pure Chinese imports. I had one from them and one from Harbor Freight here at the same time - they are exactly the same.

Most knifemakers suppliers carry diamond "stones". I believe there are 3 grits. I've seen 1" x 6" and 2" x 8" sizes. We use the 2" x 8" for teaching the "muscle" powered method. There are both sintered and plated hones. Sintered is best because the diamond runs all the way through the layer. Costs 4 times as much as plated - if you can even find them anymore. In the classroom we've been using the plated ones through about 60 students so far. Seem to be holding up. The price was sure right, something like ten bucks each. No, I don't remember where I got 'em. It was some promo-deal from one of the machine tools suppliers like Enco or Grizzly... made in China naturally.

I've pretty much given up on the USA vs China made thing. Fact is, some Chinese products WILL do the job. They certainly dominate the market. Where do you think Craftsman and Black & Decker are made these days? I use 'em. When they won't do the job - I use whatever will - be it USA, German, Swiss, French, or whatever. What we do or don't do in our short time on this planet isn't gonna affect the universe much... and life is far too short to worry about who made my toilet paper... unless it doesn't work right!

If you look around, you can find a Crocker style sharpening fixture for $29 to $39. The main problem with them is that though they have graduation marks for the angles - none of them are marked with numbers. When a student comes in with one, we take it over to the granite surface plate and set the angles we want with a protractor. Then mark them with an automatic center punch. For each different graver geometry we use different colors of model paint in the depression that the center punch makes. Crude, but it works. Make sure you ALWAYS set the graver to stick out the same length. We use 1".

Foredom actually makes a "graver sharpening system"... You plug the end of your flexshaft into it to power it. It kinda works... but I've never cared for the "multi-use" tools much. Too many compromises have to be made. It's no longer in the Rio catalog... not a hot seller, funny that they kept the PowerGraver on page 226. Not one of my first choices, but some students arrive with them and we deal with it. Another compromise tool. This one started out in life as a mechanical reciprocating stone-setters tool. Lets just say there are better ones...

I'll try to put together a list of the stuff I need to clear out before classes start again the last week of March. Anyone interested, send me an email address to send it to.

Brian P. Marshall
Stockton Jewelry Arts School
Stockton, CA USA
209-477-0550
instructor@jewelryartschool.com

[Brian Marshall]

Elkka,

What I used for many years on my own bench were the 2" x 8" EZE Lap diamond manual hones. 250, 600, 1,200 grit. To get the final polish I used Spyderco's 2" x 8" ceramic hones. I don't see the Spyderco product anymore when I just checked Google... maybe you can still find them or something similar with more time to search.

I used the ceramic as it comes for polishing carbon and high speed steel gravers, and would charge it with 50,000 grit diamond paste for the gravers containing carbide. Works fine with a Crocker adapted as I wrote about above.

The reason you want the 2" x 8" size is so that you remove metal faster in the longer stroke. You are also less likely to fall off the edge. The little 1" x 6" laps were always too awkward for me to use.

You run through the routine from coarsest to finest, and last time I timed it, I can sharpen a graver manually almost as fast this way as with a power hone. You DO have to make sure that all of the hones are at exactly the same level. The ceramic was quite a bit thicker than the EZE laps, so I glued the EZE laps to 3/8" Plexiglas to make the set match in height.

Cost for everything listed above including the Crocker holder was under $200 versus around $900 for the full dress GRS power hone. The two new powered systems that are coming out this year will run from $300 to $450 including diamond abrasives and extremely accurate indexing fixtures... from what I'm told.

We have 4 of the GRS power hones with all the bells and whistles and 2 manual setups in the classroom at the moment...

May take me a few days to get that list of surplus equipment together, I'm in the middle of setting up to teach a Mokume Gane workshop, and having some problems. Keep reminding me, if I forget...

Brian P. Marshall
Stockton Jewelry Arts School
Stockton, CA USA
209-4770550
instructor@jewelryartschool.com

[ksnyder]

Ellka,
if you're on a budget get a 4 jaw lathe chuck, got mine for $50 at a used machine place.Hold just about anything and is VERY heavy. All my work for now is hammer & chisel. I use an optivior w/ a #10 lens, just had to get used to it.
My hammer is German and I thinned it down some.
As for sharpening, learn the tool geometry first so you know what its supposed to do and the limits.
I use diamond & ceramic stones for sharpening 5% cobalt hss. I sharpen by hand in about 2 min. (the method Lynton Mckenzie has in his video)I got a 7x jeweler loupe to check angles.
Now that's cheap! but it does work. This should teach you the basics without too much pocketbook pain. With this foundation I'm learning to use an Ngraver machine now.
my $.02, hope it helps.
Kent

[Elkka]

Kent, Brian - a thousand thank you's. My diamond stones are on the way, I am not afraid of hand sharpening and actually think I will prefer it for quick sharpening. It looks like I will be purchasing an Optivisor / Ultrasonic /Diamond stones and I'll go ahead and splurge on the block (that's if Brian doesn't have a good used one for me )

Once again, thanks to all for your advice.

[mgdesigns]

Originally Posted by Elkka

Hi Shakudo, I'm familiar with the cheaper vises, but my question is what is their performance in comparison to the pricier GRS models? Here is an example of the budget vise you are most likely refering to: Ebay Link

A word of warning about this vendor's link: BEWARE!! I purchased an Ebay auction item from them last June, and was supposed to receive an 82-round hole drawplate; but, got a 36 HEX holed drawplate. When I complained, I was sent a 42 round hole drawplate, that was incorrectly machined from Pakistan (?). The holes do not even make it throgh to the other side.

I have a used Vigor engraver's vise I obtained from a friend, and also a low profile GRS, and the GRS is the better by far. If cash is a problem, check out the threads regarding homemade ball vises (made out of bowling balls, or concrete filled tupperware). Just a thought.

Mark

[Danny]

On the engraving vise - I had two. The VICTOR was old but didn't rack (when you tighten it up it held the piece). I bought a new one with holders and it racked! I put a piece in and began cutting. It came loose, I tightened it, cut, tightened, cut, tightened, etc - then had a devil of a time returning it because it was in "manufacture's specs" (so nothing was wrong with it). I fought that for a while then came across a GRS. Cost more but cheaper - because the tolerances of the "good stuff" is there for two reasons - the primary one is they understand what happens when the jaw tolerance is too loose - parts pop out! The cheap guys just think that if it moves easily, it is therefore good. WRONG. Don't waste money here - you might get a good cheap one, but doubt it. You could get a good used one, like my old Victor, but they aren't always for sale when your ready to buy.

My two cents