well what do yall think???

[Boogiedown]

this is my first post, a little about me just turned 27 been in love with knives ever since i can remember. did a couple kits and pre made blanks. but this is my first blade let me know what yall think... i know the tip is not great but i fixed it after the pictures, now it has been heat treated and ready to finish it up

[Ray Rogers]

Do you have a belt sander ( a 2x72") or are you working with files and sandpaper? You've got a good start on the vines type filework but for the size of the filework you have there should be about twice that much detail (add more thorns). By the time you put the scales on that handle you'll probably be wishing you never heard of filework. Seems like everybody wants to make their first knife much more difficult than it has to be.

Don't forget to drill holes in the handle before the HT ....

[Crex]

Ray's spot on. Keep things simple and straight forward until you get the basics nailed and down to habitual. Learning to make a quality knife before one starts with the "bling" can keep you from waisting a lot of time and effort on a "not so sure if I got it right knife".
I get beginner students that are in a big hurry to start making damascus/pattern welded blades. They have no clue what it's going to take. Once we've had "the discussion" and they still insist on doing pw before proving they have the basics of thermal cycling, edge geometry, and solid mechanical construction figured out, I send them packing.
I have concluded that the instant grafitication crowd is not worth my time and effort.

Please understand I am not putting you in this category as I do not know you. However, after 48+ years making knives (plenty in the not so good box), I have become more like one of my longtime friends .......... life is too short to sugar coat things.
There is great solid info to be had here on KNF and I hope you will benefit.

[Boogiedown]

I an using a 2x48 belt sander, I know what y'all ate talking about about keeping it simple, and I figured that out about half way thru it lol but ill take it slow and try to make the best one I can. I have been reading and learning a lot here and hope it all pays off one day

[Ray Rogers]

It will pay off but it is up to you to decide how soon it will pay off. Example: my advice to you on this project would be to set that blade aside and make another one. The other one should be very simple (same design if you wish) and very plain with just wood or Micarta scales, no guard, no bolsters. And then, instead of getting side tracked by file work or fancy handles etc concentrate on using that 2x48" grinder to get a good flat grind on your blade. No matter how fancy a knife might be it's the blade geometry that decides how well it cuts.

Then complete this second knife and take it out and test the devil out of it up to and including allowing it to break if that's how it goes. Doing this will tell you if your heat treat is good and whether or not your blade and handle design need any improvement. Nothing like a blistered hand to encourage handle refinement!

Because this simple knife will be easy to make you could make several and include what you learned on each new knife. When you are satisfied that you have it right, return to your original fancy blade and incorporate the things you learned. You'll discover that you have a well finished, fancy knife that actually cuts well and that you didn't have to pull out all your hair to get it finished ....

[Boogiedown]

What would u say is the best design to start with would be?

[Ray Rogers]

The one you have is not bad though I usually suggest a simple 4" drop point hunter. They make good presents and they are generally useful. Simple full tang with scales, no bolsters, no guard. You've done similar with kit knives probably but you never did the heat treat before. Since the fanciest knife in the world is nothing but a letter opener if the HT is bad you need to practice the HT. The only way to know if you got it right is to test the blade hard, even break it, and you won't want to do that with a more complicated knife that you put so much time and money into. Using the knife hard also lets you evaluate your handle design. So, anything simple where you can concentrate on the blade grind/geometry and HT and aren't afraid to use and abuse the knife. Also, if the knife is simple you can go through the design/build/test process much faster and nothing will teach you more about knife making than that. Use simple, cheap materials and no mirror polish! Build a knife, don't worry about a work of art yet.

Once you feel you've mastered that and can make a decent blade then consider adding guards or bolsters according to your taste or making stub tang knives (my fav). Add a little bling when you feel you are ready but not too much at one time. Learning get use exotic materials and fancy processes can be a huge speed bump - it changes everything. Make sure you can handle the basics before you tackle these things ....

[Boogiedown]

Right now I don't have anyway to do my own heat treating I had to take it some where and it was hardness tested

[Ray Rogers]

OK, hardness testing is an indication of how the HT went but it isn't proof that it worked the way you wanted it to. No matter who did the HT, no matter how professional they may be, there are plenty of things that can affect the outcome. Bottom line: you still need to do extensive testing. In fact, since you don't control the HT you should test multiple blades over a period of time to be sure the HT is being done in a consistent manner.

Even pro HT places usually don't get knives right if they normally work with machine parts - it's a different ball game and they don't generally know where the differences lie. Or, you might be asking a knife pro to do the HT but you gave him a steel that he doesn't normally work with or you aren't positive what steel you salvaged, etc. Paul Bos - one of the best known and highly regarded professional heat treaters in the country once did a batch of blades for me. The batch included one blade in a steel he didn't normally work with but he did it anyway as a favor. It snapped within seconds the first time I used it. Thankfully, it wasn't an elaborate knife so I didn't lose much. You gotta test.....

[Crex]

Fill out your profile in a little detail. You may be living "right next door" to one or more knifemakers that can help you learn a lot faster and assist you in learning how to get the results you want. You can really change the learning curve working with an experienced maker.
Nothing wrong with a 2x48....runs through belts a little faster and belt selection is not quite as good, but she will get the job done. I built one back in the early 70's that is still doing duty in my shop as a handle and guard shaper. Lots of miles on that baby. I don't do much grinding anymore as I forge to 90%+ and have very little steel to remove - use flat files and paper mostly.
To reiterate - HT and edge geometry make the knife what it is. Ray calls failures a "letter opener", I refer to them as "poorly designed and badly functioning screw#######". All the same.....not a knife.
Hardness itself is not the endall answer. Hardness relative to use and function are the goal. It's a good thing to know but it's better to know the blade will do what you designed/intended it to do...all relative.
Testing will give you these answers.
Again - fill out your profile for a better chance at "localized" help.

[Doug Lester]

I don't have much to add to what Ray and Carl have already told you but they are right to say that each knife must be tested for performance. I don't have a hardness tester and they are too expensive for me to buy one that is capable to test steel the dimentions of a knife blade but, if I can find someone who offers the service, I may have sellect blades tested to see if I'm achieving the hardness that I am aiming for with my heat treating methods. In place of that I take the edge to a rough edge and try to chop through some soft iron wire. The edge should not roll over or chip.

After I handle and put a final edge on the blade I test for edge retention by chopping a 2X4 with the larger knives. With smaller knives I slice up a bunch of 3/8" hemp or manila rope. If I were making a knife that needed some flex, like a filleting or boning knife, I would test to see how easily it flexed.

Occasionally you will also need to test sellected knives to distruction. You will need to deliberately break the blade to check for proper grain size. That is a great use for blades that just didn't come out looking the way you want.

Doug

[Boogiedown]

Thanks for all the advice, I live in killeen tx do u happen to know any makers around here that wouldn't mind teaching me a thing or too

[Ray Rogers]

Look in the Visit a Knife Maker in Your Area sticky thread at the top of the Newbies page. You should update your profile so that someone in some future conversation may see that you are close by and offer some help ....

[Crex]

Living in Killeen, Tx you ought to be within spitting distance of a lot of good knifemakers. Do a little checking with sporting goods/gun stores (smaller ones are best, not big box), taxidermist, barbershop, etc. Somebody always knows somebody down the street or around the corner that makes knives.

Doug gave some good testing advice. Bottom line is you don't know until you do know. Make sure you get someone to show you the difference between good grain structure and bad. Pics are great but nothing like eyeball-on to see what's what.

Ray, do you think folks are keeping up with the "Visit a Knifemaker" sticky? Last time I checked I had fallen of the list and I was one of the first to sign in. Haven't visited in a while so don't know if I'm on or not but will check.
Yeah, still there but the list seems kind of thin for the number of makers out there. Need some kind of recruiting drive.

[Ray Rogers]

I don't know. I looked at it yesterday and seemed to me they were. But, originally I had set it up as Locked so and asked that people email me with their info so that I could add it to the list in the first posting. Somewhere along the way, another moderator seems to have unlocked it so that now people post their own info. Unfortunately, that means the info isn't consistent, isn't sorted, and is scattered all through the thread. Still, I guess they still use it ...