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The Newbies Arena Are you new to knife making? Here is all the help you will need.

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  #1  
Old 12-24-2015, 10:08 AM
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foreveryoung001 foreveryoung001 is offline
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New guy from Michigan with some pics of first knives

Hey everyone,

Just thought I'd give a quick hello and introduce myself a bit. I'm from Northern Michigan, and have only been black smithing for a couple of months. Started looking in to it at the end of summer, made some plans, and in October started on the forge. Built from an old Jeep brake drum... (I also own two Jeeps and work on them all the time so I use a lot of scrap from those in my projects).

My first few weeks were spent just learning how it all works... heating steel, how it responds, and then started making some tongs. THe first set didn't go so well, but the second pair looked much better, and were working great.... until they snapped... forged out of a Jeep sway bar, which is probably 5160 and I did quench them, and therefor hardened them... lesson learned and third pair made from mild steel have been working great.

I'm am not a knife collector, and where as I have a good appreciation of them, have never really been fascinated with knives... except for the damascus/pattern welded stuff... I have literally drooled over some of those. So, my whole goal in learning all of this, is to make damascus knives. Its mainly for the enjoyment of trying something new, and all of the knives I have plans to make are going to be gifts for friends and family, but if I can polish my skills enough, and still find a lot of fun in making them, I might look into trying to sell a knife or two to help offset the cost of this hobby.

So far, I have only made three knives. First I did a knife shaped object, out of old jeep leaf springs and some mild steel I have left over from a bumper I built for the Jeep this past summer. I wanted to see if I could actually forge weld, heat treat, temper, and etch a piece of metal. It worked better than I had hoped, so jumped right in to an actual knife.

My first one came out more like a letter opener, but for a first effort I was pretty happy.
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Then I did a knife for my brother for Christmas. I noticed a lot of marked improvements in this one, and I felt like I was on a roll and learning a lot.
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Then with time running out before xmas, I began to work on a knife for my 22 year old step son. He's in to camping, so wanted to make something he would be able to actually get some use out of in the woods, and came up with this one. I was rushed to get it done, so where as I see some good improvement, I also see a lot of mistakes that could have been avoided if I had taken my time.
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So taking a little a brake for the next few days, and then I'll get back at it. I've got a chef's knife to make for oldest son, another knife similar to the one for my step-son, for my wife to throw in her camping bag. And then we'll see where fate takes me. I may be tired of it all by then, but since I'm already planning on building a 2x72 belt grinder, and some type of forge press to make welding the billets go faster, I think I may actually be hooked on this new hobby.

I've already learned a lot, just by lurking around here for a while, so a big thanks to everyone who shares their knowledge for newbs like myself.
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  #2  
Old 12-24-2015, 10:40 AM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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That's really incredible progress for the time you have been at it and the methods you use. But....I didn't see where you said you did any testing on these blades. Are you sure they really work? I don't mean will they shave some hair or slice some cardboard but can you beat the crap out of them chopping and prying and really mistreating them and THEN they still shave hair and slice cardboard? If you haven't done that kind of testing - up to and including intentionally breaking a few - then you should take time to do that. Otherwise, one of those campers you gave a knife to might be in for an unfortunate surprise when they really need that knife to work ...


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  #3  
Old 12-27-2015, 11:14 AM
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foreveryoung001 foreveryoung001 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Rogers View Post
That's really incredible progress for the time you have been at it and the methods you use. But....I didn't see where you said you did any testing on these blades. Are you sure they really work? I don't mean will they shave some hair or slice some cardboard but can you beat the crap out of them chopping and prying and really mistreating them and THEN they still shave hair and slice cardboard? If you haven't done that kind of testing - up to and including intentionally breaking a few - then you should take time to do that. Otherwise, one of those campers you gave a knife to might be in for an unfortunate surprise when they really need that knife to work ...

Thank you, Ray. Great advice.
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  #4  
Old 12-27-2015, 04:50 PM
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Icho Icho is offline
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Excellent work. Keep them coming and like Ray said. Test and destroy some to see how they take the abuse and hold an edge.
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Old 12-28-2015, 06:33 AM
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Crex Crex is offline
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Looks like you have the welding part down. Now get rid of the mild steel (bumper) and use two or three different hi-carb blade steels for your pattern welded work. Then test the hockey sticks out of your finished blade. Only way you are really going to know. Selling or gifting a "junk" blade will follow and haunt you forever. You need to know.

Great progress on your fit, finish and handle design. Lets see more.


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  #6  
Old 12-28-2015, 12:19 PM
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foreveryoung001 foreveryoung001 is offline
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Originally Posted by Crex View Post
Looks like you have the welding part down. Now get rid of the mild steel (bumper) and use two or three different hi-carb blade steels for your pattern welded work. Then test the hockey sticks out of your finished blade. Only way you are really going to know. Selling or gifting a "junk" blade will follow and haunt you forever. You need to know.

Great progress on your fit, finish and handle design. Lets see more.
That's definitely the next step. I've been looking for a good local steel supplier, but everyone close to me does not carry any high carbon stuff, and for the price they can order it, I'm better off just using one of the suppliers mentioned on the forum. So, I'll be getting an order in, in the next few days. Also, since this little "hobby" is turning out to be an absolute blast, I think I'm going to stick with it for a while, and I am ordering the wheels and motor to put together a proper 2x72 grinder. I've been using a little 2x36 that fits on the side of my bench grinder, but there is no speed adjustment, and I can only attach it horizontally. Its been working okay while I've been learning, but I think, for the pretty reasonable price of a DIY grinder, it is worth the time and effort to build one.

I'm working on the next billet now. It will be the laminated style again, with the leaf spring in the middle for the cutting edge. I was going to do a proper chef knife, but after the suggestions, I think I may just settle for whatever shape I wind up with, and use this one to start testing my HT and tempering processes. I know it will change when I get to using known steel, but at least I will be able to tell if I'm on the right track, and if I need to tell my gift recipients to put their knives on a shelf and never use them for anything other than opening letters.
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  #7  
Old 12-28-2015, 02:49 PM
jdale jdale is offline
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Another Michigander here, looking great for the first few knives.

Steel sourcing has always been an issue in the mitten. Alro steel has been known to carry a few misc cuts of tool steel, but nothing else useful (besides materials to make mosaic pins).

The closest steel retailer is Admiral Steel (Chicago), i have purchased 1095, 5160 and the ever controversial 1075/1084. If you want my honest opinion i would suggest anyone starting out to buy from Aldo Bruno (newjerseysteelbaron.com). More specifically his 1084, shipping usually runs in the 30's but i always buy enough to last for a year or two. His steel is slightly more expensive than Admiral Steel but a lot more consistent and in my belief far superior.
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Old 12-28-2015, 03:13 PM
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foreveryoung001 foreveryoung001 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdale View Post
Another Michigander here, looking great for the first few knives.

Steel sourcing has always been an issue in the mitten. Alro steel has been known to carry a few misc cuts of tool steel, but nothing else useful (besides materials to make mosaic pins).

The closest steel retailer is Admiral Steel (Chicago), i have purchased 1095, 5160 and the ever controversial 1075/1084. If you want my honest opinion i would suggest anyone starting out to buy from Aldo Bruno (newjerseysteelbaron.com). More specifically his 1084, shipping usually runs in the 30's but i always buy enough to last for a year or two. His steel is slightly more expensive than Admiral Steel but a lot more consistent and in my belief far superior.
The major problem I face, being so new to this, is I have no idea how much steel I will be going through, so not really sure how much to order to make it the most affordable for shipping. I see a lot of people mention Kelly Cupples too, but I have yet to email to get a current price list. I would love to get a year or two's worth stocked up, but again, I have no idea how many knives I'll be making, so haven't hit the "order" button quite yet. I'll just have to pick a decent amount and go from there, I guess.

I would just hate to buy, what I think, is two years worth, then end up hating this hobby in 6 months, and have to deal with selling off a bunch of steel I will never use. My goal is to make gifts for a good number of people in my life... I've already had offers to buy one, but until I know for sure, what I am doing, and can really improve on the fit and finish, and put the known steel through the HT and tempering tests, I'm not even thinking about selling a blade. I just have to keep it fun or I will tire of it and move on to other things in life. I'm getting to the age where I don't like wasting time pursuing things that are not enjoyable.

On the flip side, I'm a cheap bastard, so I would hate to not order enough, then have to order a bunch more in a month or two, and end up paying shipping twice.

Oh well... these are the joys of living in the real world.
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  #9  
Old 12-28-2015, 03:42 PM
jdale jdale is offline
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If you enjoyed making the first few, im guessing you will like making the next few hundred.

I am uber cheap as well, most of my shop was scrounged and bought from garage sales.
I know that if you join a few of those facebook knife groups and decide you don't like knife making many people would jump to buy your un-used steel.

As for shipping it only made sense for me to go big or go home.
from New Jersey to Lansing Michigan
1 bar of 1084 .156" X 1.5" x 48" shipping $18.42
4 bars of 1084 .156" X 1.5" x 48" shipping $20.03
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  #10  
Old 12-29-2015, 12:23 AM
Doug Lester Doug Lester is offline
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Ya, you're just going to have to bite the bullet and order some known steel. One advantage with The New Jersey Steel Baron is that Aldo will cut it into lengths to reasonable lengths for forge welding. The problem with your leaf spring mild steel damascus is that you are combining a steel that will harden with a steel that won't. Plus with carbon migration from welding up the damascus you will probably end up with a carbon content that will hardly harden, depending on what the leaf spring steel is and the ratio of the mixture. Personally, I wouldn't even bother testing those blades.

You seem to have too much talent for forge welding and producing a knife blade to waste on junk steel.

Doug


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  #11  
Old 12-29-2015, 06:43 AM
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Naboyle Naboyle is offline
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If you order over $100 worth from Kelly Cupples he ships it for free. He will also cut it into any size you'd want for Damascus. He's been my go to from the start. He's a great guy and has my business for anything high carbon I need.
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Old 12-30-2015, 05:13 AM
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Nothing wrong with repurposing materials from the scrounge pile. All my forges and almost all my support tools come from the personal plunder pile. However, making blades with mystery steel is an art that takes years of testing and retesting experience.
All the work and effort you make to produce pattern welded layered steel makes it even more important to know what you are using as base material. For example - the Jeep leaf spring may or may not be 5160, depends on when and where the spring was made not the Jeep.
Thing to remember is that layered steel is similar to chain.....only as good as it's weakest link. So, in mixing metals it is important that you have similarities in composition to reduce the issue Doug is referring to.
Going to the minimal layered sandwich with the center core a known high carb is a much better approach. However, you are still complicating the testing of your thermal cycling procedure and ability by adding the different steels. Best to learn heat treating skills with core or base metal, get it right with consistency before complicating the issue.
Note: Getting thermal cycling right for a known high carb steel in a homemade forge (actually any forge) requires breaking a lot of eggs. Be scientific about this, change only one thing at a time and take a lot of notes.


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Last edited by Crex; 12-30-2015 at 05:15 AM.
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  #13  
Old 12-30-2015, 08:55 AM
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foreveryoung001 foreveryoung001 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crex View Post
Nothing wrong with repurposing materials from the scrounge pile. All my forges and almost all my support tools come from the personal plunder pile. However, making blades with mystery steel is an art that takes years of testing and retesting experience.
All the work and effort you make to produce pattern welded layered steel makes it even more important to know what you are using as base material. For example - the Jeep leaf spring may or may not be 5160, depends on when and where the spring was made not the Jeep.
Thing to remember is that layered steel is similar to chain.....only as good as it's weakest link. So, in mixing metals it is important that you have similarities in composition to reduce the issue Doug is referring to.
Going to the minimal layered sandwich with the center core a known high carb is a much better approach. However, you are still complicating the testing of your thermal cycling procedure and ability by adding the different steels. Best to learn heat treating skills with core or base metal, get it right with consistency before complicating the issue.
Note: Getting thermal cycling right for a known high carb steel in a homemade forge (actually any forge) requires breaking a lot of eggs. Be scientific about this, change only one thing at a time and take a lot of notes.
Thank you for the great advice. My days with the mystery steel blades is over though. I just ordered a decent supply of 1080 and 15n20 from Kelly Cupples. After working on my forth knife, I decided it was kind of pointless to go through the whole testing procedure, when this isn't even the steel I plan to use for the long term, and even though all of my knives are gifts to friends and family, I'd like to be able to hand them something I have confidence in, just in case they do decide to actually use them. So, even though I still need a lot more work on the fit and finish of my knives, I figured I'd better take everyone's advice and start using some known metals. Once it arrives, I'll put together some knife like objects, and start testing and refining my HT and tempering.
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