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Randall Knives Forum Discuss Randall Knives |
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#1
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Randall Bore No 11: Early skinner grind varations
After seeing a fair number of early Model 4?s (mid ?45 to 1950), I believe there were two fairly distinct early Model 4 blade grinds! For the purpose of this Bore I will call them ?skinny? and ?deep belly?. The photographs I am posting will hopefully give you an idea of what I?m talking about. From a general dating standpoint, it seems the grinds started out skinny, transitioned to deep belly and then returned to skinny late in the decade. However, it also seems that there was some ?overlap? of skinny / deep belly grinds. I have a theory about why these two styles might have co-existed which I will close with.
As usual with most of my Bores, I rely on Mr.Gaddis and his extraordinary publication on the history of Randall Made knives as well on Mr. Hunt for his photos and intuitive research without the advantage of having had access to the Randall records. On page 105, Mr. Gaddis tells us about the Model 4 being developed and first offered in the summer of 1945. Some of the ?hallmarks? we might expect to find associated with these very early skinners would be: 1. The ?small? Randall stamp 2. Significant variation in the ?upsweep? of the blade (more on this later) 3. Left side carry riveted Heiser sheaths with metal buttons (the very earliest having ?oversized? throat rivets. Conversly, the hallmarks we would expect to find on a later skinner would be: 1. The normal size Randall stamp 2. Standardization in the blade upsweep (easy to distinguish from a Model 3 (notwithstanding the model 3 ?hump?) 3. Right side carry Heiser sheaths with rivets and brown buttons. Now let?s get to the photos and descriptions in what I?ve attempted to arrange in chronological order: This knife is what I believe to be one of the first skinners made. One of the primary reasons is the two pins in the handle (reference Bore No. 8). What it also has is the small Randall stamp and a left side carry Heiser with black painted metal snaps and oversized rivets at the throat. Note the blade grind: Generous upsweep and ?skinny? in profile. [IMG]http://www.fototime.com/{4957CBD8-EF...8}/picture.JPG[/IMG] Now let?s move on to the 4-7 in Mr. Hunt?s first book on page 43. This knife is also very early by virtue of it?s small stamp, left side carry Heiser sheath with painted black metal snaps and oversized throat rivets. The blade has a little larger belly than the first knife I?ve presented, but it is still ?skinny? when compared to some of the later models following in this Bore. The upsweep is pronounced enough to be easily recognized as a Model 4. As a side note, I very respectfully disagree with Mr. Hunt that this knife was made prior to the summer of 1945: There were ?skinner type grinds? made during the war years, but these were ?Commando? type fighting knives with double hilts and (typically) a sharpened clip. This knife also has a ?peened tang? which I have never seen on any WWII era knife (My WWII Hunter has a brass nut and washer following the norm for leather handled Model 1?s and 2?s). I believe his provenance extends only to the fact that this knife was owned by a WWII veteran, not that it was actually carried during the war. Mr. Gaddis was pretty clear that the only field model made during WWII was the hunter. This next knife has the small stamp and also resides in a left side carry Heiser with a metal button and again the oversized throat rivets. Note the blade grind: Not far off from a model 3 sweep (3 ?), BUT it does not have a hump coming off the hilt! I say ?if it ain?t got the hump, it ain?t a Hunter??..it?s a Skinner, and this skinner has the ?skinny? grind! Before I move on, I want to make a comment about those oversized throat rivets: I have only seen three Heiser sheaths sporting these and they all came with early model 4?s! Not to say there aren?t other period models in this unusual sheath and I?m sure there are, but it does seem a bit of a coincidence. [IMG]http://www.fototime.com/{47866BB4-0C...7}/picture.JPG[/IMG] The next knife is even more interesting in my opinion: It came to me without it?s original sheath. It has the small stamp and a blade upsweep identical to a model 3, but there is no hump! This knife was documented by Mr. Gaddis to have been shipped from the shop in July of 1946 based on the name etching. It is obviously a ?skinny? grind. [IMG]http://www.fototime.com/{DDBDC391-74...D}/picture.JPG[/IMG] OK, let?s move on to the first of the ?deep belly? skinners: This one is another knife in Mr. Hunt?s first book on page 61 (Ivory handled 4-7). Note how full the blade grind is, and what he says is a ?pronounced upsweep? (quite a departure from the two previous knives). Note here is where we also first start to see the LARGE stamp. The sheath is still early: left side carry with metal buttons painted black and ?standard? sized throat rivets. This knife and sheath had to be made just prior to the introduction of the brown or translucent logo glove snaps. He also notes that ivory was first offered in the 1948 catalog. This statement is true as it applies to a published offering, but Bo was making some ivory handled knives sometime before this: In Gaddis? book on page 116, he states that an ivory handled model 8 was made for Bo and Gary in April of 1947. The next knife is a ?skinny throwback?: obviously produced after the first deep belly above because of the translucent snaps, BUT it has the skinny grind and a large stamp! The sheath is right side carry as were most of the translucents housing field knives (I have only seen a few that were left side carry). [IMG]http://www.fototime.com/{F0F8F714-44...4}/picture.JPG[/IMG] This next knife returns us to the deep belly variety. It has a large stamp and a right side carry Heiser with rivets and (a) brown button. [IMG]http://www.fototime.com/{979F2A33-BB...6}/picture.JPG[/IMG] This next knife is one of my all times favorites because of it?s ?Scagelesque? appearance . It is almost a ?little brother? to knife on page 61: Full belly and skinner upsweep. Note again the large stamp, right side carry Heiser and brown buttons. [IMG]http://www.fototime.com/{7F43CF33-88...B}/picture.JPG[/IMG] This deep belly is right on the cusp of rivets phasing out. The retainer strap goes through slots, but is also secured by a small rivet identical to those at the throat as opposed to the large copper rivet seen on earlier riveted sheaths. The original owner of this knife has stated that he can narrow it down to 1948 because of the date he graduated from school. (Thanks to buckstix for the photo and story). [IMG]http://www.fototime.com/{DF14A9AB-1B...D}/picture.JPG[/IMG] This knife is the latest deep belly I have ever seen. The grind is very similar to the first of the deep bellies, but the sheath puts it post ?48 because of the absence of rivets. This gorgeous knife is owned by Tom (TAH) and he has a right to be proud of it. [IMG]http://www.fototime.com/{4A2C6147-F5...6}/picture.JPG[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fototime.com/{7220901B-ED...D}/picture.JPG[/IMG] This last knife made very late in the decade returns us to the skinny grind that will continue through to the model 4?s being produced today. It also represents one of the last knives retaining the ?blade flat? that runs the length of field knives produced throughout the 40?s. [IMG]http://www.fototime.com/{35F6A0E3-19...C}/picture.JPG[/IMG] So???the question we are left with is why there were two different Model 4 blade grinds during this era? Was it because of a preference and special request by the customer(s)? I don?t think so. Mr. Gaddis tells us that there were only two primary knifemakers working from 1944 through 1948: Bo and Bill Platts. I believe each of these guys had their own idea of what a skinner grind should look like. If I am correct, then who made what style? My thought is that the skinnys "might" have been made by Bo and the deep bellies made by Bill. I say this because there seems to be a predominance of deep bellies as we move through the decade and Bo was known to be phasing out or limiting his personal involvement in the operations as the decade came to a close. OK I?m ready to take potshots by Crutchtip or anyone else who has a mind to. Everyone?s comments are welcome. Thanks and best, Ron Last edited by BoBlade; 06-12-2006 at 08:01 PM. |
#2
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Great job Ron! Lots of information and great pictures in this "Bore"! I will see things in the threes and fours in the future that I didn't even notice before this lesson. Thanks to our Indiana friend Tom for sharing his knife with us too! I started out really liking the fighter / survival type Randalls. The deeper I get into this, the more I lean toward the hunters and skinners. As a self test, I looked at my latest catalog and was able to identify the threes and fours correctly before referring to the descriptions because of reading this "Bore".
Thanks, seuss |
#3
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Cool
Outstanding Ron, an inspiration - and a job well done...
-S |
#4
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Ron Excellent
__________________ Dick Roberts RKS 535 |
#5
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Absolute best posts as always Ron! you are Yoda in my book
__________________ Thewap |
#6
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I can't believe you guys actually believe the crap I dream up and throw out there!
Seriously: Thanks! |
#7
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Excellent "Bore" Ron!
Very informative, well illustrated and a pleasure to read! The only light I can shed on your question about which knifemaker, Bo Randall or Bill Platts made the "skinny" or the "deep bellied" versions is that it cannot be attributed to their size, since both men were both quite slim. Cheers! Moosehead __________________ It takes less effort to smile than to frown ! |
#8
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I will just post these PICs of my model 4s. One older one and one newer one.
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#9
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Ron,
Thanks again for your "bore". Man, if you can't learn from this, your really slow..or just not wanting to learn! The pictures are great. Besides building a new knife, we all get to see what some of the more "vintage" Randalls were like. Now, everytime I go somewhere, I look in shops for some of these "older" Randalls. Maybe someday I'll spot one! Kent RKS #109 |
#10
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I'm dredging this old Bore up because I picked up a nice old "deep belly" the other day. My photography skills suck, but at least you should get a good idea. Holding this thing in my hand I'm thinking it's just too big to skin anything less than a Tyranasaurus Rex!
I hope you guys enjoy. Best, Ron |
#11
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Ron, enjoy? Man, don't I...thas purty darn sweet! I'll keep an eye out for a loose riveted keeper strap...
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#12
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Shel,
Are you settled into Big Sky country yet? Seems you are at least "connected". Ron |
#13
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Ron,
Aye, we rolled in mid Tuesday - finished unpacking the boxes today. It's all good, we like snow - and it's warmer here than over on the eastern slope. (sorry 'bout the thread drift guys) I'll call soon with more details... |
#14
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One more digression...
Good luck in your new home Sheldon! And since you both like snow, get yourself and Edna a pair of cross-country skis! Cheers! David Now... __________________ It takes less effort to smile than to frown ! |
#15
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Sorry for further digression but man I sure like Montana. I was born there but did not stay long. Last time I was there was late summer 1988 when I spent almost a month flying in support of reserve Special Forces from Florida. Beautiful country and very nice people.
Jeff |
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blade, knife, knives |
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