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High-Performance Blades Sharing ideas for getting the most out of our steel.

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  #61  
Old 02-14-2005, 09:20 PM
Bwitty Bwitty is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ssj2
Toughness and hardness are the to most important factors in a ninja sword.

Hey guys I just came across this thread and thought I would give my 2 cents on this statement.

This is fact is not true. a "true" ninja sword is not even a straight blade, it is in fact a normal Katana with a few slight aifferences. The straight bladed ninja sword with the square Tsuba is actually a movie rendered design. Also flexibility and differential heat treatment is essential for a true Katana or Ninja-to sword.

If all you want is to hack down bushes and small trees then toughness may need to be your main priority, but please do not dismiss the essential flexibility needed in a sword such as a katana for traditional fighting purposes.

Thank you for your time


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  #62  
Old 02-15-2005, 09:12 AM
peregrine peregrine is offline
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Wink The legend of Excalibur continues...

Excalibur legend and the sword in the stone still remain tied together.

The idea of Arthur's drawing the Sword from the Stone and becoming king of Britain is not to be found in the historical texts. (Though almost everything else is too.) And yet, one possible explanation is this:
The Latin word for stone is saxo; the English word for the Germanic invaders who took over the country is Saxon. It is quite possible that the story of Arthur had him killing a great Saxon leader and taking his sword as a symbol of prowess and renewed vigor and victory. It is also quite possible that in copying (which is what they did in those days), a scribe might have forgotten to add a letter, namely the last, to the word Saxon. Hence, "Arthur pulled the sword from the Saxon" may have become "Arthur pulled the sword from the stone."

Robert de Boron relates about the Sword in the Stone:
Yet, Robert says the sword was in an anvil on top of a stone. The introduction of this device took place in Robert's Merlin. The sword symbolizes justice, and the stone represents Christianity. By pulling the sword from the stone, Arthur is agreeing to pursue justice in the name of Christianity.

And then where do legends come from?
For months it rested in the stone,
The sword Excalibur;
The noblest knights of England's realm
Strove hard the steel to stir;
For word had gone through all the land
That he who drew the blade
Should fill the sovereign's empty throne,
The rightful king be made.


The Camelot Project at the University of Rochester; Excalibur by Sallie Bridges
Source AND similar: source
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Last edited by peregrine; 02-15-2005 at 09:23 AM. Reason: Add link for those who like to cruise
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  #63  
Old 02-15-2005, 03:25 PM
Jerry Hossom Jerry Hossom is offline
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Ya know, if it came from the lake or was stuck in a stone, the #### thing was still stainless. That's my position and I'm sticking to it.

S30V


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  #64  
Old 02-15-2005, 05:54 PM
peregrine peregrine is offline
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Talking I agree!

It must have been stainless and the people of the day attributed its properties to magic. (Or was that the ionic charged edge?) Ha!
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  #65  
Old 02-15-2005, 06:42 PM
Jerry Hossom Jerry Hossom is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peregrine
...and the people of the day attributed its properties to magic.
Some people still think like that!!


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  #66  
Old 02-23-2005, 03:40 PM
AcridSaint AcridSaint is offline
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Though Ssj2 probably has lost interest, I'd like to make a couple points just in case he does come back and visit.

As previously mentioned the largest drawback with making a katana out of stainless steel is the differential heat treating that it needs. If you can get somewhere around 45rc on the spine and 58-60rc on the edge then you don't need to worry, but making the whole thing somewhere around 58-60rc is going to make for a very brittle sword. The reason katanas are shaped that way isn't because it looked cool, it's because they bend when you quench them... the reason they bend is because of clay, the reason for the clay is to differential heat treat and the reason for that is so your sword doesn't break when you swing it at something. You want a hard cutting edge and a soft spine to allow for flex.

What you should consider (and perhaps what drove you away from this thread) is the cost. It's going to cost you a lot of money for a custom sword made from any material. The only reason I can think that you would want something stainless is so that you don't have to take care of it. If you're going to spend the money for a custom sword (keep in mind that many custom knife makers charge $200+ for something as simple as a skinning knife) why wouldn't you put in the time to care for your blade properly?

Carbon steels like 1050, 1084 and 1095 are close to the more traditional steels used in Japanese weaponry and as such you can be sure you'll get a good performing piece out of them. Additionally, something like 1084 is not only easier to work with, but is much more available and cheaper to acquire. This will likely translate into a cheaper finished product for you. Lastly, you may find that people who are experienced in making 1084 swords are much more abundant, and perhaps you'll be able to get something more affordable that still has a good deal of quality and function.

You may be able to get a great sword made out of just about any steel out there, I haven't tried them all, so I wouldn't know. What I am sure of though, is that with proper maintainence a 10 series carbon steel will last a very long lifetime and quite possibly be more forgiving of your mistakes.


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  #67  
Old 02-24-2005, 02:19 PM
Carey Quinn Carey Quinn is offline
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I have been following this thread and found it really interesting. It has been said a number of times that stainless cannot be differentially tempered. Maybe, maybe not.

Check this out: http://www.haslinger-knives.com/Lion.htm

This fellow definately has something goin' on.

Last edited by Carey Quinn; 02-24-2005 at 03:05 PM.
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  #68  
Old 02-24-2005, 03:36 PM
Ssj2 Ssj2 is offline
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Hello guys, sorry I've been gone for so long. I've been really busy with work and forgot to post for a while. I have caught up on reading all the posts and yes I am still interestid in getting an s30v sword made. If any thing from reading posts on here and looking up alot of info on s30vI would have to say I have become more convinced that this steel would make a great sword. I know now that it's the toughest stainless steel ever made and can come close to possibly even matching the toughness in carbon steel. I also know that it would make a funcional sword around 58rc, I beleive it was Jerry who made a a2 sword at this hardness and it worked great. I looked at that web site and saw that s30v had been differently tempered I didn't think that was possible but if is an s30v sword could possibly be the best sword ever made.

I havn't heard from Dan in a while or even seen a post by him in some time, but he was working on an s30v sword and I wondering how that was going. If any of you guys have heard any thing let me know.

Last edited by Ssj2; 02-24-2005 at 03:43 PM.
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  #69  
Old 02-24-2005, 03:44 PM
AcridSaint AcridSaint is offline
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I'm just curious, what are you willing to pay for a sword made form s30v?


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  #70  
Old 02-25-2005, 01:13 PM
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McAhron McAhron is offline
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Someone build this guy his sword.He knows what he wants and the customer is always right.Ssj2 i would start a new thread titled s30v sword maker wanted.As for defferntialy hardening stainless it can be done but the only way ive read about involves very very expensive machinery.


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  #71  
Old 03-01-2005, 11:18 AM
peregrine peregrine is offline
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Smile AcridSaint Are You Sure?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AcridSaint
The reason katanas are shaped that way isn't because it looked cool, it's because they bend when you quench them... the reason they bend is because of clay, the reason for the clay is to differential heat treat and the reason for that is so your sword doesn't break when you swing it at something. You want a hard cutting edge and a soft spine to allow for flex.
I have been wondering about what you said and I (no expert) don't think it rings true. If so, what about double edged swords? Here's what I have found about the katana bend.

"A fourth feature of the Japanese styled swords is the distinctive curve away from the edge, owes its origin to another practical demand: the need to draw the sword and strike as quickly as possible and in a continuous motion. Where the sword itself forms part of the approximate circumference of a circle with its center at the wearer's right shoulder and its radius the length of his arm, drawing from a narrow scabbard will naturally be easier and faster than with a straight weapon."

This and the natural "sweet spot" cutting zone of the sword, would appear to me to be the reason for the curve in these swords. Am I wrong? Anybody?
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  #72  
Old 03-01-2005, 11:25 AM
Jerry Hossom Jerry Hossom is offline
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It's my belief that somewhere in the center is truth. It is true that edge hardened blades will warp away from the edge. Clay tempering may accentuate that effect. It may also be true that Japanese bladesmiths used that fact to their advantage to make the sword more wieldy.


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  #73  
Old 03-01-2005, 11:34 AM
AcridSaint AcridSaint is offline
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Differential heat treating of katanas came along well before iai or quick-draw swordsmanship. The art of drawing wasn't really a concern until the Tokugawa shogunate and years of peace that followed. Previously the Japanese had went to battle with their swords already drawn and mostly had no need for the "sweet spot". If you look at earlier swords like the Tachi, which was around well before the Katana and a decent amount longer. They weren't curved to draw, it was just the next logical improvement over the early ken. I'm no expert, but I've studied a bit of iai and a bit of swords, I also happen to be a histoy major concentrating on asian history. I won't say I can't be wrong about this, but I will say that I'm pretty darn sure.

Fwiw... There is some speculation that the Japanese learned their advanced swordmaking techniques from the Chinese. To the best of my knowledge there is not Chinese quickdraw sword art like iai-do.

**Edit** Jerry brought up an interesting point, I too have no doubt that later smiths used the curve to their advantage and improved upon it for the practictioners. But I think that saying that the curve is purposeful is kind of like saying "it's not a bug, it's a feature". Also, I misread the sweet spot part there, sorry


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Last edited by AcridSaint; 03-01-2005 at 11:44 AM.
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  #74  
Old 03-01-2005, 11:47 AM
peregrine peregrine is offline
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Thanks for the info

Appreciate the info.
Roger that!
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  #75  
Old 03-01-2005, 12:29 PM
AwP AwP is offline
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Quote:
I have been wondering about what you said and I (no expert) don't think it rings true. If so, what about double edged swords?
As far as I know the Japanese didn't make any double bladed swords after they started makinf tachis and katanas. Other cultures had double edged swords but they didn't clay coat them for diff hardening, instead they through hardened and tempered it softer, sometimes doing a diff temper but not a diff hardening.


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