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The Newbies Arena Are you new to knife making? Here is all the help you will need.

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  #16  
Old 08-19-2013, 11:42 AM
mitchmountain mitchmountain is offline
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Makes sense I guess I was thinking of it as all or nothing not hardening in parts.
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  #17  
Old 08-19-2013, 04:05 PM
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Ed Caffrey Ed Caffrey is offline
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I'll throw in my 2 cents. Personally I will not use 1095 for anything in my shop. For a LONG time it was the standard for knife blades.....then industry started messing around with it, and broadened out the mangasese content, so it would be cheaper to produce. For most applications that wasn't and issue. but for knifemakers it can be the kiss of death! The "standard" for manganese content in 1095 was always .30-.50%. What producers have done is widen that spec out to .20-.70%. What this means is that if you happen to get a batch of 1095 with .30+% of manganese, you'll be fine, BUT....should you get a batch that has less then .30% manganese, you basically have less then 1 second on the time temp curve.....in other words, you have less then one second to go from critical temp to 400F or less to ensure full hardening. Pretty much physically impossible for those of us in a "small shop" environment. I discovered this after fielding a number of emails and phone calls from folks who could not get their 1095 blades to harden.....after about the 10th one, it seemed pretty strange. I started doing some digging, and finally got some answers from a friend who worked at a now defunked steel plant...... long story short....I don't have the time or willingness to use a steel that I might, or might not be able to harden.....so 1095 doesn't get used in my shop.


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  #18  
Old 08-19-2013, 05:39 PM
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Gary Mulkey Gary Mulkey is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Caffrey View Post
I don't have the time or willingness to use a steel that I might, or might not be able to harden.....so 1095 doesn't get used in my shop.
Good point, Ed. There are enough things that can go wrong with making a quality knife without asking for potential problems. There are other steels that will make a quality knife to be used without the risks. The only time that I have used 1095 in years is when I needed some 1/16" steel for a Damascus pattern and 1095 was the only option (sandwiched between others) and the carbon migration mitigated the problems.

Remember the K.I.S.S. adage.

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Last edited by Gary Mulkey; 08-19-2013 at 05:50 PM.
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  #19  
Old 08-19-2013, 07:14 PM
mitchmountain mitchmountain is offline
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Here is the knife that I finished, did some messing around with it, just peeled some paper, and such cut a bit of rope and the knife still shaves. Took a wicked edge and kept it( my testing was not very rigorous). I stole this design from a knife in the display case. It is not for sale and its for my use, it was one of those designs that I couldn't quit looking at and ordered 2" wide stock so that I could make it. Turned out good and it'll work for me. I'm going to quench in canola next and see what I get. I'll eventually get some parks or AAA but I'm impatient and want to try things out yesterday and well shipping takes so long.


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Last edited by mitchmountain; 08-19-2013 at 07:17 PM.
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  #20  
Old 08-19-2013, 08:03 PM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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QUOTE: I'm going to quench in canola next and see what I get.

Well, now is the time to start figuring out what you get. As you said, your test so far hasn't been very rigorous. So, get tough - don't worry about a nice finish, don't use your best handle materials, just make the knife using each different method that you're interested in and then test the knives really hard, break them if you can. Slicing paper and shaving hair is little more than good edge geometry, you can do that with a wooden blade. Get mean, get serious, get down and dirty until you know that your methods work as well as you want them to....


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  #21  
Old 08-19-2013, 09:10 PM
mitchmountain mitchmountain is offline
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Smile

That got me all fired up, think I'll take that new blade and try to chop down a cell phone tower or cut my way out of a bank vault. Ahhhhhh!

Seriously though not sure if I'll push it to the point of breaking it, I work with my hands all day with patients and a knife blade suddenly snapping in my hand scares the crap out of me. I'll give you an update on the next one when I finish it up. I think I'll make the same basic blade as I did before just quench it in canola. One question I never got an answer for is it a problem that my paragon takes so long to ramp up to 1500 that I'll get excess carbon burnoff that might effect the surface hardness like when I run the file over it. Thanks for all the input I'm learning alot.

Mm
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  #22  
Old 08-19-2013, 09:24 PM
Doug Lester Doug Lester is offline
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If I were to use 1095 the only place that I would get it would be from Aldo Bruno at The New Jersey Steel Baron just for the reason that Ed stated. When Aldo orders a batch of 1095 it's with the stipulation that the manganese comes in within a range that is good for making blades. He will also post the exact assay, not a target assay, for the steel that he carries. However, steels with that much carbon in them need more temperature control than can be achieved with a gas or solid fuel forge. You will need a kiln to keep from dissolving too much carbon into the austinite which can lead to a high level of retained austinite. Now you might be able to trigger the RA to convert to untempered martinsite with multiple tempering but preventing the problem is better and that take good temperature control.

Doug


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  #23  
Old 08-20-2013, 05:48 AM
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I'm learning something here.


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  #24  
Old 08-20-2013, 06:28 AM
WBE WBE is offline
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" I'll eventually get some parks or AAA but I'm impatient and want to try things out yesterday and well shipping takes so long."

You don't want AAA for 1095. It is not quite fast enough. If you insist on using 1095 get Parks #50 or an equivalent oil.
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  #25  
Old 08-20-2013, 09:48 PM
claymoore claymoore is offline
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Hey Ed, Thanks for the info on 1095. What steel do you use if i may ask?
Thanks
Clay
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  #26  
Old 08-20-2013, 10:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Lester View Post
If I were to use 1095 the only place that I would get it would be from Aldo Bruno at The New Jersey Steel Baron just for the reason that Ed stated. When Aldo orders a batch of 1095 it's with the stipulation that the manganese comes in within a range that is good for making blades. He will also post the exact assay, not a target assay, for the steel that he carries.
I'm really starting to fall in love with 1095 again. I am extremely picky about where I get it though, for the reasons Ed and Doug mention. Either Aldo's steel and a fast quench oil, or I won't use it. If it is made to high standards (most is not) and heat-treated properly it is an excellent steel for knives.


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  #27  
Old 08-21-2013, 08:13 AM
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I agree that IF you purchase your steel from Aldo Bruno, you're gona get "good" stuff. Aldo is a tad more expensive on some steels, but it's well worth it to KNOW you're getting steel that you can actually use for blades.

Personally I use a lot of Aldo's 1084 (I purchased a LOAD of it when he first offered it). I also have a supply of 5160 in 1" square stock that was made back in the 70's, so I don't have to worry about the inclusion problem. Finally I also keep a good supply of 52100, and some SUJ-2 (Japan's version of 52100). For Damascus I buy 1080 from Kelly Cupples, and I have a good source for 15N20 out of Canada.
All that might sound complicated, but it brings home a good point about steel these days....almost 30 years ago when I started out on this adventure, "good" steel was everywhere....these days you have to know what you're looking for, and be wary. Through experience, I've learned that "cheap" steel, is just that.....and there's a reason for it. Right now there are only about 3-4 sources for knife steel that I trust, and will buy from. All the others have given me reasons to doubt the quality of what they offer.


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  #28  
Old 08-24-2013, 09:02 PM
mitchmountain mitchmountain is offline
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Changed up my heat treat on some 1095, but also threw in an O1 blade and a cruforge V blade into the kiln at the same time. took it up to 1510, let it soak for 5 and then dropped it into canola oil I heated in an old 20 cup coffee maker( I thought of that one all myself, and yes I'm proud). It turned out great and passed the file test better than my last blade, put in oven for 1 hour at 425, and I'm going to finish the blade tomorrow. Definetely harder than last venture with lower temp and motor oil quench. The O1 I dropped in heated motor oil and it hardened up great then same temper as above. Cruforge same except I used the Canola on that one. I took both the Cruforge and the O1 up to 1530 and let them soak for 5 before quenching. The Cruforge I got I just wanted to see how the HT went with those steps, but I have a buddy that wants me to use his coal forge and power hammer, the stock is too thick for my liking(.25") So I'm going to hammer it out to .125 or so and then remove the stock, normalize and go into the HT that worked on the thicker stock. I'm sure I didn't get the full hardness out of the 1095 but it was definitely an improvement. Now, to test some blades.

God Bless,

MM
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  #29  
Old 08-25-2013, 06:49 AM
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1095 and 01 should not be austenitized much above 1475?. Doing so is detrimental to the carbides as they will try to go into solution and not be as beneficial as intended. You also need more quench oil than 20 cups. A couple of gallons would be much better. That alone could be much of your hardening problems. The canola oil should be fine for the 01 also. Lose the motor oil. One can hardly find a worse oil for heat treating.
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