What do U think - "Tactical" or not ?

[Colin KC]

... to be in on what this thread is supposed to be about

Jason,
I've found the dict. def. of the word & can see no direct reason for many of the knives that seem to fall into this category to be called such, however , I don't know much about the subject, so please, everybody, don't shout at me for upsetting anyone, such is not my intention



tac?ti?cal Pronunciation Key (tkt-kl)
adj.
Of, relating to, or using tactics.

Of, relating to, used in, or involving military or naval operations that are smaller, closer to base, and of less long-term significance than strategic operations.
Carried out in support of military or naval operations: tactical bombing.
Characterized by adroitness, ingenuity, or skill.



It seems to me that any knife, with a dark or military look, coupled with a "neo tanto" style, or exaggerated fighter type characteristics & synthetic materials is classed as a "Tactical" knife.

I'm making no judgements here, just my simplistic view of things.

Fighters on the other hand...


...I think have no such ambiguity in the way they're portrayed, knives made for the purpose of fighting, be it one to one, knife vs knife or mass mayhem. Not to be confused with a knife made for only killing (dagger)


It seems to me, however, that the perception of the two types, are completely different.

Martyn made a point about the laws in this (our) country, but, if I were to try to import a Loveless fighter, tapered tang, stag slabs, bullseye pins etc. etc. I would have no problem getting it past customs (It's a "collectors" knife Guv, look at the price tag!)
or indeed a "Fairbairn/Sykes Dagger" (After all Guv, most of 'em were made in this country, it's historic )

If however I were to try an' import a "tactical" knife, no matter how much the price tag was...


... "Sorry sonny, can't 'ave this, it's a "combat" knife"


It's perceptions, some tac knives are amongst the best "effective" i.e. designed, all round , general purpose, camping, box opening, user friendly knives I've seen ('course, some are complete pants, useful only for looking good)


Sorry about the rambling, but my point is this, it doesn't matter to me what label a knife comes with, I wouldn't choose for that. What matters is the function (& everything that comes with it, materials, design etc.) If it looks "tactical" it will be because it was designed well for the specific purpose of being a "tactical" knife.

After all, form follows function, labels are just descriptive semantics, for whatever reason.

[J.Arthur Loose]

For the record...

I know Wulf personally, and he's a good guy.

I don't know Mike Snody, but I'm sure he is as well. I was a little surprised at Mike's initial response to Wulf and I strongly suspect that a miscommunication blew out of proportion.

Somebody here earlier posted a link to a Bladeforums thread and implied that this business here on the CKD was personal on Wulf's part.

If you read the *entire* thread it comes to this; regarding Wulf's question "...what makes [ this Snody knife ] so special?" :

"Nosamk, Wire edge,

That's pretty much what I was hoping you'd say. [ that the knife functions *excellently* ]

Mike Snody isn't trying to fool anyone with gimmicks or doodads or flashy extras.

Yes, I had wondered whether or not the lock was user-friendly. I guess it is.

The fact of the matter is that I've found myself thinking about buying one myself some day. I have the distinct feeling that if I do, I'll be quite pleased with what I get."


You can bet that if Wulf extends his hand and offers you a beer he means it.

>> Now back to the discussion of 'Tactical.'<<

-Sincerely

[Sylvester]

I think Y`all are missing the whole piont of this
thread. Enough said

[Nosamk]

Mr. Loose-

I posted the link back to BF. And the point of it was that this isnt the first instance where Wulf has taken 'jabs' at Mikes work. He may be a good guy, I dont know him. I do, however, know Mike and I can assure you that he is 100% no BS guy. I also dont agree that Mikes initial response was wrong...he addressed to point every question Wulf had raised.

[Colin KC]

Hope I'm not too late...

... to be in on what this thread is supposed to be about

P'rhaps I was

[falconhawk]

Labeling is a tool. That is all, no more no less. I do not care what it is called. If the knife appeals to me I will buy it, use it ect........
To call one tactical and another a combat and yet another a hunter or survival knife matters little other than for marketing purposes. I feel that most of those who have posted here in CKD seem to be men of honesty and integrety. That is part of this forums appeal to me. To hear aspersions on this board (in my opinion) is to hear a miscommunication. The idea of calling a knife by any of the so-called labels, to me is as I have already said, Marketing!

I have made many knives and when time and finances allow, I hope to make more in the future. Right now my focus is on engraving. But always, there is the love of the blade!

But to me, as long as the knife functions as it is ment to, that is what counts. The best reason for custom knives,,,,,, an outlet for the creative talent of the maker. If function is all that is needed, over the counter knifes serve quite well. But there is a feel, the feeling of a "living" blade when one holds a custom knife that can never be captured by commercially made knives. I have had in my hands most of the commercially made knive ( I worked with the curator of a museum, who's personal intrest was knives, as a kid).
But the first time I ever held a custom blade, it was a samauri that had once belinged to Mushashi, I understood the differance.
Unfortunately, our market is the general public and untill John Q. Public understands and feels what we as "knife" people know and understand,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

WEll I guess I have rambled enough here,,,,,,,,,,

A custom knife is just that, Custom! And to me that says it all!

Falconhawk

[Martyn]

Originally posted by Colin KC
...if I were to try to import a Loveless fighter, tapered tang, stag slabs, bullseye pins etc. etc. I would have no problem getting it past customs (It's a "collectors" knife Guv, look at the price tag!)
or indeed a "Fairbairn/Sykes Dagger" (After all Guv, most of 'em were made in this country, it's historic )

If however I were to try an' import a "tactical" knife, no matter how much the price tag was...


... "Sorry sonny, can't 'ave this, it's a "combat" knife"


It's perceptions

Spot on Col. It is all about perception and intention. I had absolutely no problems whatsoever, importing this into the UK (the package was opened and checked over by customs before being released to me)....



It's razor sharp, differentially tempered (carbon, of course) with a nice active hamon. See...



...and at 36"toatal length, about as deadly as an edged weapon can get. I used the word weapon, because there is absolutely no ambiguity about it, .....it is a sword, a weapon for martial combat, designed to efficiently dispatch ones opponent.

BUT... It's obviously a collectors peice, not just because of the cost, but because of the historical perception. It's absolutely lethal, but perfectly legal in the UK!

This, on the other hand, is absolutely illegal....



Explicitly illegal in UK law, this "urban pal push dagger", retailing at $19.95 has just a 2 1/2" long blade. It wouldnt make it past UK customs. A UK bobby catches you with one of these and it's a trip to joliet.

Perception and intent, it's everything.

[Colin KC]

Yah, saw that, Paul chen, marvelous!

'Course, that was before someone ripped apart our lovely thread in Britishblades , shame really, 'cos, as you know I have a weakness for Cold Steel Trailmasters. What if I wanted to collect all the Cold Steel range (just as valid as wanting a folded steel katana) I'd be stuffed!

Semantics is all

[Jason Cutter]

Getting away from any further individual clashes...

Labelling is a tool just the same way a knife is a tool.

In order to support our passion for the whole knifemaking work, we have to SELL stuff. Marketing DEMANDS that we are clear about what we present and advertising depends heavily on a set of images or assumptions.

The "tactical" label was well defined at least 2 pages ago by Les Robertson. Even Les would agree that the description he gave was HIS description, not everybody else's but its darn near close to what other people think of when you say "Tactical."

Les has the ability to post pictures, he's got a website, like many of you do. Those who don't have a website, like myself, suddenly will find the need to be really good at describing what our knives look like.

The various labels are almost the paths of least resistance. I do get sick of describing my 4inch utility as having a recurved this or that, double guard, green canvas ... I give up and just say, "It's a tactical looking item." Most customers get what I mean fairly quickly.

What's in a name ? Well actually there's plenty. Its the way that we impart our attitude on our creation. Analogy time ...

I would never think of naming my new born child Idiot Cutter or Incontinent Cutter; its gross misrepresentation of the qualities of the person named such.

This brings me to Mike Snody's labelling of his knives as tactical, including a "tactical" bird and trout knife. I've already stated my personal bias that I not only respect Mike's work but he is an inspiration to my own work as well. Inside jokes aside, when I looked up his website to see what the fuss was about, my immediate reaction was, "Cool, that does look tactical." Other reactions I then had as I browsed the other responses in this thread - "Yes, It would make a hell of a small game hunter, or a bird and trout." Then, " It does have similarities to a Kerambit."

The many impressions other people had already developed made complete sense to me as soon as I laid eyes on what they were talking about. Reality fit the imagined, for me.

I personally will probably NEVER get away from the tactical feel of my own knives. I can label them whatever I like, my customers and other "observers" may and are are entitled to form their own opinions. I've made plenty of "tactical caping knives" or "tactical hunters" if one applies the so-called criteria. I must add that there are NO criteria.

My background is such that my personality inescapably extends to the things I create. Thats the beauty of what we all do. There's a small piece of us that goes with the knife as it leaves our shop for a new home.

But here in Australia, its reasonably "oppressive" if I can call it that. Probably not as bad as some other places, but bad enough. I am on about being able to make knives for as long as I wish, as long as there is a demand. There is nothing to be gained by attracting the malice of those who feel that I am somehow a warmonger, armourer of gangs and inviting persecution.

If it means being PC, then so be it. Its not about losing the "war" or giving up. Its about retreating to a safe place to continue a successful campaign. My choice to be PC about some things is my personal choice. IN fact, most of my colleagues feel that I am one of the most un-PC people around. But that judgement is relative, as are all things.

My friends, the world changes, we have to evolve with it.

Take one of my favourite Bible verses; it accompanies my signature - ... "Jesus said to his disciples, For I am sending you out to be like sheep amongst wolves. therefore, be as innocent as doves and as shrewd as snakes..."

A verse to live by indeed, in these times.

Cheers.

[hammerdownnow]

Martyn, I, like you, like to hear other opinions,and like you i sometimes change mine after hearing the other side of the story.This internet thing is great in the fact that it brings us together to talk like this in a global sense.
It is hard to keep in mind that we are viewing things from two different cultural perspectives. I see why, because knives with defensive/offensive names are illeagal there it would put a damper on things. This became all too apparent in the recent Ferret incident.
I have a new friend, a guy from England that was transferred here for his job. He and I are both 46 years old. He is getting a large japanize dragon from shoulder to elbow, so we have had lots of time to talk. I was suprized,shocked and amazed to hear that while we are taught that the American revolution was won by heros fighting for freedom against an oppressive dictator, he said English children are taught that the war was won by snipers fireing from trees who cheated to win. This is just one example to show how two cultures can view one incident from totally different perspectives. Seems like we are all swimming in a sea of propaganda holding our collective breaths, tryin to reach the surface for the light and truth. About all we know is what we are taught.
We here in the U.S. see the slow steady push to totally disarm the public in England, OZ and Canada. This type of governmental castration is revolting to a lot of free thinking Americans, and i'm sure others world wide. We here are consantly hammered by the anti-gun, anti-personal freedom sect on t.v. and the news papers. It is a hard thing to stand against. But stand we must. Luckaly,we have this forum and knife publications to look to for support. All my life i have felt the national switchblade laws were stupid. Now Blade mag. comes out with a three part story on repealing this stupid law. Hurahh! This to me is a step in the right direction.
Do you think we should all talk here in code so the "key word"
checkers don't catch us? How bout this? (tounge in cheek)

Made a new "nail clipper" today! Wow! Looks like it will really clip the H.E. double tooth picks outta any "nails" that would give you a problem. If you would like to obtain one said "nail clipper" I will meet you in the usual place, at the usual time and leave it in the usual place. Thanks, your friend, Clipvendor [the artist formerly known as BONECUTTER, PERVEYER OF ALL THINGS SHARP AND WICKED]

NOT!

This is just my pesonal opinion. I don't claim to speak for anyone else on this forum,or this country. I have enjoyed our chat so far, and in no way wish to offend or insult anyone. If i have it is probably due to my poor spelling and writing skills. Good thing we got a dictionary at the tat shop....lol

[Coutel]

Originally posted by hammerdownnow
. I was suprized,shocked and amazed to hear that while we are taught that the American revolution was won by heros fighting for freedom against an oppressive dictator, he said English children are taught that the war was won by snipers fireing from trees who cheated to win. This is just one example to show how two cultures can view one incident from totally different perspectives.

Thought I would reply to this part with my "Brit cap" on.

I think that maybe you took what your brit friend said too literaly!!!

Me thinks you may have misinterpreted some 'brit humour'....

I had to laugh when I read it ;



firing from trees....no.
but cheated to win.......yes..... (more humour)

lol
Kevin.

[Martyn]

I had to laugh at the snipers firing from trees thing too. Though I do understand what you mean HDN, but for clarity, Brits dont generally tend to think of that particular war in that way. We're pretty aware that our country spent the best part of 400 years colonising countries we didnt have the right to colonise and have spent a number of decades giving em back . The war of independance, means a lot more to you guys than it does to us, for you, it was a national landmark, for us, that was just one of many overseas skirmishes where we happened to get our butts (rightfully) kicked

It happened quite a bit in British history - colourful to say the least. Brits arent generally so nation-centric as to deny these basic truths, I think our kids get fed a fairly accurate version of world history and both the good and the bad that Britain played in it.

We certainly do have differing cultural perspectives though. I do understand where you're comming from. For what it's worth, I do think the British laws go a little too far, but for the most part, I think we're pretty much on the spot with it. To some it may seem opressive, to others, a sensible solution. We live in a country with a 60 million population, our police dont carry firearms, because they dont need to. That's pretty amazing really. We work on the basic premis that a modern society shouldn't/doesnt need to have it's civillians armed. For the most part, I think most think it's for the good of the country (again, our historically driven cultural perspective is different to yours) we dont really consider this repressive (though I do think it's gone a little too far). I think when people see images of snipers taking out kids, it reinforces the concept. Dont get me wrong, I love to play with guns (at least I used to ), but the annual firearm death tolls for the UK speak for themselves - ...a low of 7 in 1988, with a high of 42 gun murders in 1999.

I'm not saying the US should follow suit, there are cultural differences which would probably make it impossible, but if I were to choose between the right to carry/own a gun and in so doing, sacrifice these phenominally low statistics, I would choose to keep things as they are. I like to play with guns, but I dont need them that badly. Remember, we wiped out all our bears, wolves and big cats centuries ago, about the most vicious thing you'll find in british woodland is a badger (if you can find one).

On the point of blades, we can still import pretty much anything, my perfectly legal blade above shows that, but it's representation and image that counts. Our laws heavily discourage the vigilante/urban warrior mentality, but do allow freedom for collectors and entheusiasts (obviously there is a lot of grey in between).

EDIT, I think the free world is heading into a new era, where we muct choose between our cilvil liberties and national sfety/security. I think the US has had to face this with horrific abruptness following 9/11. None of us are really free.

[aiiifish]

Very interesting post. Nice to get a good objective view from across the pond.As far as 9/11 is concerned though one of the founding fathers said something to the effect of .......those that give up liberty for security will have neigther. Something to ponder.......


Steve
Double S Custom

[PDCarby]

as someone who is intrested in crafting what would be traditionally called weapons (swords, daggers and axes) i only pose this response. i one time asked my photography professor in college what seperates art from trash. she refered to the three p's: presentation, professionalism, and purpose. how you present and display your wares makes a massive impact, first impressions are unfortunatly crucial. how professional you appear and the respect you receive also plays in, as well as the implied purpose of a knife. we see a wide blade with a gut hook it implies a hunter/ hunting application. should a 11 inch blade with wicked looking flanges and grips be any different?
the only other thing i have is this: in photography, every portrait i do i do my best to educate people as to the purpose of photography in the modern world and to the joys of displaying a finely crafted portrait in their home. i think in a way, people will always jump to conclusions and create judgements. we should focus more on educating the individual buyers as to the place cutlery has in society and to the joys of owning a finely crafted knife.

as stated before this is my opinion

paul david

[Mick Strider]

Originally Posted by Sylvester

I have been kickin that subject around to.
In todays world I think we (the makers)
are making a mistake by putting names
like Tacticals,Fighters an Any name that
would give a knife a bad image. But hey
what the the hell do I Know.

This is a great point!

And one of the reasons our knives have letter names.

Say you defend yourself one day and are standing in front of a Judge. The name of the knife you used to defend yourself is "Deathwind".


You may want some soap on a rope......





With regards to "Tactical".

Tactical means a lot of things these days....but we think of it like this:

Made for War. There are of course lots of ways to define that....i have mine, others have theirs.


m


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