What do U think - "Tactical" or not ?

[Martyn]

Hey cool, if I rename my 3" buck folder, "Stormbringer, slayer of children", re-fit it with G10 scales, then no one will dare attack me. - LOL.

Sorry, I cant see that, I think the tactical branding appeals to the buyer alone and does nothing at all to strike fear into your assailant - I would think very few assailants would stop to ask the name of your knife.

On the other hand, the sight of my grannys pansy guilder (actually a 36" katana, in rose-pink shira-saya) might raise an eyebrow.

[hammerdownnow]

This kid sure wouldn't, especially if i see it hangin off your belt. Fear of retribution forstalls 90% of attacks. Muggars prey on the weak,and unarmed. If you see a big knife, you just know its gotta have a cool name. If not I'll re-name it .I myself like Kitchen cutlery. I suggested that Terry primos name one of his knives the "Onion fighter" get it. " Vadalia" Vadalia Onion...Onion figher!!!!....forget it he didn't seem to get it either

[Wulf]

aiiifish,
I took the liberty of following the link in your signature and viewing your website. You have some nice knives there. I noticed that you plan on making some "Extreme Environment Knives." I also noticed your slogan: "Hard core knives for EXTREME individuals."

Now, forgive me for saying so, but that slogan sounds somewhat familiar, doesn't it?

"Strider knives - high speed tools for hard core individuals"
"Double S Custom - hard core knives for extreme individuals"

Strider has been very successful in the tactical knife market as well. Any maker would be happy to have a piece of that success.

In Mr. Snody's case I felt that his use of the term "tactical bird and trout knife" made a mockery of what to many people is a rather serious issue, and he did so at the expense of all outsiders, which include prospective customers, other makers, and non-knife folks. I tried to make that clear. I tried to do so respectfully and I was mocked and ridiculed.

But I'm not alone in my view. That much I know.

Once again, what this all boils down to is integrity. I feel a custom maker should take his work seriously and should show pride in the knives he makes and sells. In so doing, he should be honest about the design and intent of the knife.

If it was designed to kill people, he should say so.
If it was designed to cut vegetables, he should say so.
If it was designed merely to look scary and intimidating, he should say so.

It's much easier just to call a knife "tactical" and hope the popularity of the word lends some false credibility to the knife itself. It's also much easier to follow trends and copy other makers who have found a successful formula.

But doing so is dishonest to oneself and one's customers.

[Nosamk]

I cant believe I just saw this thread

Coop- for the record Mike took that pic, I only posted it.

I've just got to comment on the tactical bird and trout thing....

If you cant see the 'joke' that Mike is refering to then you obviously pay no attention to the knife market, whats selling, whats hot, or anything else. Tactical is not only a 'class' of knives, but its also a buzz-word per se. What makes a knife 'tactical' well I guess it depends on who you ask......Les will tell you it aint tactical if it has a wood handle - no matter what else the design has [since were using Mike here I'll continue with him as example - his new Fixed Blade Resistors. He has made some with G10 scales and some with Ironwood...same #### knife] Les would say the G10 models are 'tactical' and the ironwood models are 'hunters?? [help me out here Les]. Not only is it a matter of perception, it is also a matter of *opinion*. So the Snakecharmer by Les' definition *is* 'tactical' but by someone elses it may be a 'hunter'. I dont think that Mike intended to lead anyone astray by calling it a tactical knife any more than Les would have me believe that an identical knife with the exception of scale material is NOT tactical.....

but who knows....thats just my opinion.....



[edit- added after Wulfs most recent post]:

If you [Wulf] think in any way that Mike is somehow dishonest and lacking integrity because he called a bird and trout knife tactical then you obviously have bigger problems than knife classification. Until you meet the man it would be best not to judge his chacter or make and assumptions about it.

Do I think the Snakecharmer was meant to kill ppl? NO
could it? sure. as could any other tactical, hunter, art, flim-flam, or kitchen knife. Its not the name, the genre, or anything else that kills....its the edge and the man holding it.

[Wulf]

Keith,
I see you own, what, ten of Mike's knives? Eleven? And I'm sure he's very nice to you. However, that alone does not give you free ####### to make ad hominem attacks against me or anyone else who may share my view. If you'd like to address any of my points, then by all means, feel free to do so. But let's try to keep this civil. Let's stick to the actual discussion here.

For the record, I'll say it again. It's not just about the use of a word, it's about honesty. Please try to understand that.

[Nosamk]

Wulf- you are correct, I own eleven of Mikes knives. I think I probably owned 3 of them before I even met him. Of those eleven I think I have actually gotten 4 from Mike himself -the rest I purchased off the forums or TAD. I dont think Mike is 'nice' to me cause he needs someone to buy his knives....I could sell all 11 of mine in probably 24 hours or less and Mike would still have more business than he can keep up with.....

and what ad hominem attack are you refering to? the fact that I said you had bigger problems than knife classification after YOU implied that Mike is somehow dishonest and without integrity because he refered to a knife as tactical??!?! I mean come on....you are discounting a man because of a label he gave a knife? how much sense does that make? Have you ever met Mike? talked to him at a show, emailed him, anything before you began your assault on his person??? and you have the nerve to say something to *me* about keeping the discussion civil??!?!

and for the record: I dont own nor purchase knives from individuals lacking in integrity or honesty. Mike is the pinnacle of both of these and if you took the time to know the man before you brought him to task you would know what I speak of.

[dogman]

OK, before this thing spirals into oblivion, I am going to weigh in here. I personally have no opinion on the subject matter whatsoever. I am, though, friends with both Mike and Derrick and since I know you are both great, awesome, enthusiastic stand up guys and knifelovers extraordinaire, I hate to see the direction this is going and all I see is a misunderstanding of personalities and and perceptions.

Mike: Derrick (his last name is actually Wulf) has a true love for knives and spends serious time choosing pieces for his collection. He is as meticulous in his selection of custom knives as you are in how you make knives. I can assure you that his strong feelings only reflect his love for hand made knives. Besides, he must be a good guy, he has one of my knives in his collection

Derrick: Mike is one of the finest knifemakers you will ever meet and puts out clean pieces that put my work to shame. I am glad he does not make dress knives. I can assure you that there is no ill intent in the way he labels his knives and he does cater to a customer base that is very comfortable with the "tactical" genre. Besides, he must be a good guy, he has one of my knives in his collection

We all love knives. We just have to understand that we individually love them in different ways for different reasons.

[Nosamk]

Hey Wulf- whats the chances you're the same 'Wulf' that had issues with Mike's knives back in this post:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/sh...hreadid=209764

[Wulf]

Keith,
I can't make it any clearer than I already have. Mike admitted that he made an "inside joke" regarding the description of his knife. I stated quite clearly that I disagreed with his approach, and that I felt it was dishonest to intentionally use false labels, be it jokingly or otherwise. Then he was promptly reduced to using bitter sarcasm in a rather childish attempt to ridicule me.

I never launched an "assault on his character." Once again, I stated clearly that I disagreed with his tactics.

Now let me say that one more time:

It was dishonest to intentionally use false labels, be it jokingly or otherwise

Regarding your ad hominem attacks, here are the specific quotes to which I referred:

"If you cant see the 'joke' that Mike is refering to then you obviously pay no attention to the knife market"

"If you [Wulf] think in any way that Mike is somehow dishonest and lacking integrity ...then you obviously have bigger problems than knife classification"

Now please let's move on from the 'Wulf vs. Snody' drama. Both positions have been clearly established and I don't like the direction this thread is taking. Personal attacks, bitter sarcasm, and ridicule have no place in the CKD.

To me, this discussion is about honesty in the description of a knife, its design and intended use. I think we all agree that the word "tactical," for better or worse, carries with it a strong suggestion of something much larger than just the literal definition of the word. I also think we all agree that it benefits the industry to, at the very least, be aware of the connotations these words can carry, and the political implications thereof. The way in which the members of the broader knife community conduct themselves, particularly with regard to "outsiders" and those who won't get the inside jokes, affects every one of us.

Again, honesty in the description of a knife, its design and intended use should be the goal of every knifemaker. Anything less than honesty, even in jest, damages the integrity of the profession and the community of makers, users, collectors and enthusiasts that comprise it.

Am I wrong?

[JossDelage]

Originally posted by Wulf

Regarding your ad hominem attacks, here are the specific quotes to which I referred:

"If you cant see the 'joke' that Mike is refering to then you obviously pay no attention to the knife market"

"If you [Wulf] think in any way that Mike is somehow dishonest and lacking integrity ...then you obviously have bigger problems than knife classification"

Just FYI - this is not an ad hominem attack. An ad hominem attack (or defense most of the time), is a way to fend off an argument by attracting the attention on the person's totally unrelated fault, real or perceive. For example, if someone says: "Wulf's argument on tactical knives is worthless because Wulf cheats at golf", that's an ad hominem attack.

Just my $0.02.

JD

[Nosamk]

OK, I am sorry...I see how it works now. Its ok for *you* to make ad hominem attacks on a makers character without any personal knowledge of the man, but it is not ok for me to state basic observations about you. Did I say you were dishonest or lacking integrity? Nope. I did not. You however DID imply that Mike was and that my friend is ad hominem.

You'll never see where I am coming from because you dont want to. You obviously have some problem with Mike and his work.....why I dont know, but I suggest you keep your character evaluations to yourself until you have something more concrete to base them on than the genre of a knife.

[Wulf]

AD HOMINEM - adj - Appealing to personal considerations rather than to logic or reason.

- American Heritage

Thanks anyway Joss.

Kieth, my e-mail address is dickwulf@yahoo.com. For the benefit of everyone else here, if you wish to continue this little spat, please send all personal attacts to that address and keep them out of this thread.

Moving along, if anyone would like to discuss honesty as it relates to the topic of makers' or dealers' descriptions and marketing tactics, then I welcome your participation.

[NCBlades]

Wulf said:
As long as you're making fun of your customers, I wonder how seriously you take your work itself.

Listen here Wulf, Mike would never make fun of his customers and he takes his work very seriously! I have been to his shop a number of times and I know he wants nothing but the best for his customers and if a customer has a problem with a knife Mike will do anything he has to to correct that problem. Hell, I've had knives from other makers that were messed up and Mike offered to fix them for me for free instead of me sending it back to the maker who was going to charge a rediculous amount to fix something that should have never left their shop. As for Mike's Bird and Trout knife, I've actually held one in my hands and its the best custom knife you will find anywhere for $100 and I plan on buying one as soon as I can. It sounds like you are either jealous of Mr. Snody or you have some personal issues with him or his knives. You should take Mike up on his offer to meet with him at a knife show. You might just learn something!
michael

[Nosamk]

Here's a definition for you:

slan?der -
n.
Law. Oral communication of false statements injurious to a person's reputation.

A false and malicious statement or report about someone.


And I have YET to attack you personally - only questioned your reasoning for the comments about Mike which you STILL have not addressed.

[Wulf]

I have made no false statements.

Mike Snody made an inside joke, to which he gladly admitted.

Said joke was misleading to anyone who was not an "insider."

Hence, said joke was less than honest.

Show me where I made a false statement and I will retract it and apologize.

To all the friends of Mike Snody that have come to his defense, understand that I have no issues with him personally, but rather with the way in which he described and marketed a knife. How many more times do I need to say that?

Yes, I'd be glad to meet him at a show and shake his hand.
Yes, I'd be gald to buy him a beer and get to know him better. Yes, I would openly tell him that I feel his approach in this particular case was innappropriate.

I wonder his friends and groupies respect him enough to give him equally honest and objective feedback...