What do U think - "Tactical" or not ?

[Jason Cutter]

I'd like to open up a discussion that I'm sure will have its debates.

What do people think of promoting knives as "Tacticals" or "Fighters." Included in this argument is the use of scary, violent names for knives like "The Dark Beast" or "Bloodmaster" and generally endorsing our knives for the purposes of "fighting" or self-defense.

I know many makers who look at knifemaking as an artistic endeavour ONLY. Others make nothing but military-oriented knives. I don't mean utility designs which is what most "combat knives" are used for, but full-on killing styles designed for stabbing, etc. Others make knives for police and rescue units. Hunting is a major market and my support for hunters and their activities have previously resulted in a great deal of criticism of my own philosophies by some apparently learned colleagues of mine.

I personally feel that knives are mankinds most useful and basic personal tool. A knife serves a multitude of different purposes, but its use or misuse is subject to the hands of its operator. Whether for violence or more mundane, practical everyday use eg.- kitchen, opening boxes, CUTTING is the core feature of the knife and the manner in which humans dictate its application is simply the nature of ALL tool available to humans. Thats my own view.

What do people think ?

Cheers.

[Sylvester]

I have been kickin that subject around to.
In todays world I think we (the makers)
are making a mistake by putting names
like Tacticals,Fighters an Any name that
would give a knife a bad image. But hey
what the the hell do I Know.

[Don Cowles]

In this age of political correctness, it is tough enough to keep knives on the "acceptable" level without labeling them with names like Death Spear. We hurt our own cause by sensationalizing them. Just my opinion, but it IS my opinion.

[Wulf]

Speaking of sensationalizing things...

A very popular maker, who has done quite well in the tactical knife market, recently unveiled a new model - a tactical bird and trout knife.

I suppose this knife was designed for close quarters man-to-fish combat applications.

But seriously, a "tactical" bird and trout knife?

The term "tactical" is a marketing ploy, and it works. There is no shortage of people who are more than willing to pay a premium to own a product that allows them to indulge their warrior fantasies and play make believe with their fancy new tactical knife when no one is looking.

There's nothing wrong with that.

But the question for makers is, do you want to be a knifemaker or a marketer? Do you want to make what you want to make, or simply that which will make you the most money?

There are countless arguments for and against either path you choose. Most makers lie somewhere in the middle. The most successful ones, however, don't follow trends, they set their own.

As for the political aspect of how people choose to describe their knives, I feel that as long as a maker is honest about the designed applications of his product, he shouldn't worry about the perceptions of others. It is only when a maker is dishonest that he creates problems. A maker who misleads his customers or tries to sell his knife based on anything but its own merits - that maker is dishonest. Such behavior is innappropriate, unethical, and unfair both to customers and other knifemakers.

[cactusforge]

I think a number is enough even if my numbers don't make sense even to me. I feel that If a customer wants to bye a knife from me it don't make any difference what you call it. Gib

[Martyn]

In the UK, the law prohibits the sale and import of knives expressly designed for combatant use - that is, knives described as being for combatant use. We can import/buy/sell any knife for collectable purposes *unless* it's described as combat killer or commando throat slasher. As far as the British law is concerned (which is rather too restrictive IMO), it's the intent that is all important. The shape and style can be as agressive as you like, but the description is crucial. For example, Busse combat knives are illegal because they are called combat knives. You could sell the same knife as a "hunter" and everything would be fine. The British law considers knives described as "throat slashers as only being usefull for slashing throats, so prohibits their sale/import.

For us, it's not about being PC, it's about being within the law, which can be tricky at times.

[Osprey Guy]

One of my pet peeves is with the knifemakers who go out of their way to photograph knives with guns, and more often than not, it's an assault weapon...

Knives are getting a bad enough rap as it is, what with 9/11 and all (as if a "knife" had anything at all to do with that...) If you want to make a knife which has inherent military applications that's fine, and they certainly have their place, but I don't think your prospective customer will have any difficulty figuring that out when he sees the knife on its own, without smacking him and everyone else in the face with the deadly, assault implications of that particular knife.

Now I understand of course, that there is another great big audience of hunters out there as well...but my same argument applies...You don't need the gun to get the message across...there are plenty of other props which could be equally as effective.

If we all took more time to promote knives as the oldest and most important tool, and stayed the heck away from (publicly) promoting them as killing tools, we all might be experiencing far less restrictions right now. You guys with your knife and gun photos are "shooting yourselves in the foot!"

Dennis

Yeah Baby!

[Jason Cutter]

Guys, I'm glad people are thinking about how we represent our trade / profession. By this I don't mean that one train of thought is better than another. Fortunately or unfortunately, whenever we stand up and market our wares, we don't just get heard by the knife enthusiasts and knife nerds (like me). We also get heard by all other sorts of so-called non-knife people.

I personally think that we have to understand OUR OWN reasons and philosophies. If I ONLY marketted my knives to the military, I think that photography of my new BAYONET attached to an M4 carbine is quite OK. In fact it might be expected. But YES, it would be more appropriate to picture your new hunting knife sitting on a log or rock.

Some people believe that sensationalisation is the best form of advertising and that there's no such thing as bad press. So be it.

In this day and age, we have to be thinking 5 steps ahead about how we preserve our way of life. Knifemaking for me, is more than a hobby or money-making scheme. Its an entire lifestyle and persona. I DO NOT WANT FOR THIS LIFESTYLE TO SOMEHOW END UP HAVING TO GO UNDERGROUND, as some other relatively fringe interests have had to go.

I guess I've stated my own position that I personally would like to get away from the whole tactical orientation for my knifemaking. BUT I can't avoid it. My own background is very tactical and martial in orientation. You can't entirely alter the essence of a man. My stuff always looks a little tactical, even my small game hunters and caping knives.

I would love to hear from other makers who are more inclined to military-style knives or who in fact openly create "weapons."

I don't want this to turn into a heated debate. I just want a presentation and dscussion of different ideas. While some people might feel that we shouldn't need to justify what we do, I believe it is important to be able to at least consider a few different opinions and options.

To each their own. Ultimately I think we all want the same things.

Cheers.

[jdlange]

As far photgraphing knives along side firearms I am ok with this to a certain extent in that the firearm photgraphed with it should coincide with the application of the knife. If you are taking shots of a hunting knife shoot it with something relevant like an old shotgun with a beautiful damascus barrel both lying on a pelt or with a nice muzzleloader and a powder bag as these are all asthetically pleasing works of art as well. I myself do not make any knives meant specifically for injuring other people and therefore could not comment on knives made for those applications or how they are marketed. Certainly there is no reason to take shots of a knife made for hunting with an M16 is there? This is just my opinion, maybe it's wrong, dunno, it's just the way I feel.

[DC KNIVES]

I would rather, especially in these times promote knives as art or tools than weapons.Is there a market for " tactical", of course, its where alot of the money is now. But I think it is prudent of all of us to protect what we have and not for sake of the almighty dollar by not giving the "PC" more ammunition to use against us.Speaking of pic's, I shot this knife several ways.One had an 1840 double barrel muzzleloader, the other a Bird of paradise flower.While I like the gun shot , the flower shot ended up on my calender.And the reaction seemed much better.


I am not sure what is the right thing to do, but I like many of you have made this my life and I do not wish to be removed by government regulation by the "PC".Dave

[Osprey Guy]

Here's the problem with photographing knives with guns in any context..it's not your audience, it's the other audience...

The truth is that the majority of people look at a photo of ANY gun and read "violence." And it's beginning to head in that direction for knives.

I hate to think how many times I've shown a knife or even a photo of a knife and have someone cringe...To which I always respond: "Do you act that way around your kitchen knives?"
They always react the same way. They'll think about that for a second and say "of course not." I'll ask: "So why pull back at the sight of this knife? (and we're talking about a 2.5" folder) Do you think it's somehow going to leap out and cut you? Do your kitchen knives do that?"

More and more people are thinking of knives the way they already think about guns, and that's a very bad thing for us. Inevitably, it'll get tougher and tougher to own any knife other than a "kitchen utensil."

Anything we can do to lessen the public's increasing tendency of equating knives with violence, is becoming more and more of an important mandate.

For the bayonet makers, military and tactical knife makers, etc. I recognize that this is a very tough issue to deal with. I was in Barnes and Noble the other day, walking past the magazine section. Just a few feet away from the interior design/arts and crafts magazines, were a number of gun mags and soldier of fortune/military type mags...On the cover of one was a large "tactical" knife sitting across a handgun in the background. Blade and Knives Illustrated sat a couple of mags over in the same section. For the woman headed for the interior design mags, what do you suppose was the not so subliminal message she got?

I pointed out to a woman the other day, how it is that knives are such an ancient tool and yet have changed so very little over thousands of years...You could see the thought process as it swept over her. The more we can get people to actually think positive thoughts about knives, the better. Associating knives in any way with any gun, like it or not, hurts our cause...

Dennis

Yeah Baby!

[jdlange]

I see your point, unfortunatly the ignorance of other people out there has made things this way, hopefully someday in the future they will not be quite so but for now you are right.

[Coutel]

Interesting subject...although not apparantly new.

1837..Georgia prohibited the sale of Bowies and other knives maunufactured and sold for the purpose of being used in offence or defense.

1838..TN banned possession of all Bowie knives (but not pistols, revolvers or swords).

Bowies were seen purely as a weapon and carried as such

....as news of the use of the Bowie at the Sandbar duel gained momentum, it pretty much became a legend in a very short time........making laws to prevent people carrying or owning them I am sure added to the popularity (good marketing ploy?)
I guess you could say that in some (19 century)States, to own a Bowie knife was seen as not being PC!

[Jason Cutter]

Trail Angel, its amazing how times have changed, or have they ? I am actually trying hard to expand knifemakers horizons to include so-called "non-knife" folk. I myself approach such people as often as possible and so far make quite a good business from doing it in a gentle, warm and enthusiastic way that doesn't scream "knife nut" or blood thirsty crazee...

It really depends on your approach. I talk nuts and bolts tactical ideas when designing a custom knife for a SF-er going to the front line, but I'll be talking ergonomics and dishwasher safe or not when making a custom chef's knife for a hospital colleague. I'm sure even my tone of voice and language is quite different. The right thing for the right place and right time ...

The joys of training to be a Psychiatrist ...

[Les Robertson]

Interesting thread. As someone who sells more than their fair share of tactical knives, Id like to offer my take on this.

First, the word TACTICAL has now become a marketing term or a category of knives. It generally defines a "Look" more so than anything else.

Tactical folders:

Generally 3-4.5" blades, satin or bead blast finish.

Titanium frames

Liner lock

Black G-10, Black Micarta or Black Carbon Fiber. Although, green or maroon micarat are used on occasion.

If there is a bolster, titanium is the prefered material.

Don't forget the pocket clip.

Tactical fixed blade:

Any where from 1" to 36".

Satin or bead blast finish.

If the knife has a guard, expect it to be either integral or stainless steel (usually 303 or 416).

Handle material usually, Black G-10, Black Micarta or Black Carbon Fiber. Also we see green micarta and green or black para-cord for the handle.

Sheath is usually kydex or concealex on the smaller blades. Kydex lined, Cordura nylon on the bigger blades.

Leather is sometimes used, but has proved inferior to the aforementioned materials over long use in the field. Additionally, Airborne and Air Assault units cannot jump, rappel or fast rope with a knife that has a leather sheath. Exception, a kydex lined leather sheath.

These are common aspects of TACTICAL knives. I wrote these to give you parameters of the "TACTICAL" knife.

Can a hunting knife have a TACTICAL Look to it? Yes.

However, is a hunter with a shiny blade, brass guard and beautiful matched Sanbar Stag Scales a "TACTICAL" Hunter....no. It is a hunter.

Remember "Tactical" is a category.

Art knives do not have micarta handles. Why? Because that handle material is not appropriate for that category. Again, it is only a category as Art means a lot of different things to a lot of different people.

Again, I am talking in the broadest sense of the word. As there are some people who would consider a beautiful tactical knife as Art. While that is their opinion and they are entitled to it.

It is not the category the knife would be put in. An example of this would be the CKD for sale gallery. A tactical looking knife would be put in the tactical section. Even though someone may consider it an Art (category) knife.

I am talking big picutre here.

Defintion of a Fighting knife? The one you have in your hand when the knife fight begins.

Definition of a Survival knife? The knife you have access to when you are put into a survival situation.

Point to all of this? If you want to compete in a particular category. Find out what the generally accepted parameters are of that category.

Then use the "favored" materials of that category.

Obviously you can use any materials you want. You can make a "Tactical" knife using Damascus and Pearl. Just understand that 99% of the buyers out there would not consider this a "Tactical" knife.

As a maker you want to give yourself the best opportunity to sell your knife in a particular category.