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  #61  
Old 12-05-2006, 09:12 AM
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I was figuring three months. Some of these knives can be very large and/or very labor intensive.

As for what steel, it kind of falls into the talents of the maker. I worked more than once with carbon so I will stay with the steel's I know, S30V & CPM154. Both of these steels can be very difficult to work with and home HT. There are others who might do forged integrals out of carbon steels and these take a lot of work and skill.

Of the common blade steels sold by the knife makers houses there isn't one that won't make a good knife. The secret (as it were) is in the heat treat. Very simple formula:

OK steel + good HT = good knife
Best steel + good HT = great knife
Any steel + bad HT = bad knife

440C & O1 (from a good dealer) are considered low end as far as steel goes for custom knives but ANYONE who says they don't make good knives is full of it. There are steels that can make better knives but with a good HT these steels will give very good knives. Better than most production knives. As for what is the best steel, this debate will never end. Carbon vs. stainless. Forging vs. stock removal. I leave that to those much smarter and infinitely more skilled than me.

Jim


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  #62  
Old 12-05-2006, 09:42 AM
Doc Hollywood Doc Hollywood is offline
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Jim,

I was thinking about going with a better quality steel and then send it out for HT. I have a lot to learn on the subject of making knives but I guess the best way is to just jump in and start paddling. I will check out some of the companies that sell steel and then check out some of the heat treaters as well.

Is there an estimate on how much money should be spent on materials? I know being a newbie someone may not want to get my knife so I want to be sure I do this right and want to get some help along the way.

You guys on this site are a great group and I have learned a lot so far. Maybe one day if I get famous you can say I knew that guy when he didn't know squat. I have his first custom blade, he sure has come a long way.
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  #63  
Old 12-05-2006, 10:09 AM
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What sort of tooling do you have? I, personally, would not wish working Crucible's steels with hand tools on anyone. If you have a grinder you can work any of the steels. I believe that the CPM steels are way superior to other stainless. They are a lot more work though because they are so much harder even in their annealed state. They eat sandpaper like you would not believe; I use ceramic belts and die maker stones for a lot of my shaping & finishing.

If you are as new in this as I am guessing I would recommend going with 440C. CM154 or ATS34. They will give good results when HT'd. They have fairly low costs, running about $8-$25 a foot depending on the size. That would be determined by what you are making. I'm thinking about an ulu. I will be ordering a special piece about 6 x 6. If you are thinking about a paring or steak knife (always a good chose for someone's kitchen) you will do well with a foot of 1 x 1/8, about $9 from Texas Knife supply. If you go with a large chef's knife (over an 1 1/2 wide), you might want to check to see if anyone has some plate available, it would run a pretty penny to get it custom cut and most places have minimum orders (Crucible is $75).

I would get Jantz's new catalog or go to:
http://www.kovalknives.com/images/pdf_catalog_44.pdf

And check out their selection of knives. They have one of the best selections of kitchen knives available.

If I may, I would also recommend getting a couple of the kit knives and finishing them. It will give you some good ideas on proportions and size as well as getting some practice on finishing skills. I still work on kit knives and as I learn more I can make them even better. I don't think I will ever get (at least I hope I don't get that big headed and I hope the guys around here slap me around the head if I do) to the point of making knives that I would say that they a junk because they aren't custom made.

Jim


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  #64  
Old 12-05-2006, 12:08 PM
Doc Hollywood Doc Hollywood is offline
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Jim I have a 4 x 36 belt grinder and I have built a few kits already. Do you think working with S30 V would be too difficult or should I stick with ATS34 or CM154. I would send out for HT.

By the way here is an example of the last kit blade I did.
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  #65  
Old 12-05-2006, 12:21 PM
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The main problem I had when trying to use a 4 x 36 was getting good radiuses because the belt didn't track to a sharp corner. Mine had a very wide radius and I gave up on it until I got a 1 x 42. Granted it ran so fast I got a 2 x 72 very soon after that but it was usable. Beyond that you might ask in a solo question. A lot of people don't frequent the KITH posts and people like Ray, Don C., etc are much more knowledgeable than I am. WAY more knowledgeable.

Jim

P.S. - very nicely done on that knife


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  #66  
Old 12-05-2006, 05:20 PM
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Dwane Oliver Dwane Oliver is offline
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Does your 4X36 have the disc sander on it? If it does you could do a flat grind , mabey a small paring knife or something along those lines. A blade dosent necessarly need a plung cut. I did alot of work with my 4X36 , I still do. If you have the "want" to , and you obiously do , and you do the best to your ability on the knife you build , I would be proud to own it. I think many people here feel the same way as I do.
Do you best , enjoy what you are doing , and WELCOME to the KITH.

Dwane


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  #67  
Old 12-05-2006, 05:34 PM
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Andrew Garrett Andrew Garrett is offline
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Jim,

I always find it interesting how people think of steels. Your statement that identifies 440C and O-1 as "low end" will raise a few protests if the cutting competition guys read this thread, to be sure. They love that O-1 stuff.

I'm a sophmore maker and have learned all of what I know from this site and a handful of the common 'how to' books. As a result of this informal education, I Think of steels in three catagories: stock removal stainless, stock removal carbon, and forging steels (always carbon steels). Selection is based on intended use and budget.

If I had to rank the steels (for purely entertainment purposes), I'd do it as follows, with the higher corresponding number being a higher grade of steel:

Remember. This is how I think of these steels based on what I have read. I have not used all of these steels. The ones I have used are in blue. I have not forged any to date so none are blue in that area.

Stock removal stainless:
1. 440C
2. 154CM or AST-34
3. S30V or BG-42
4. CPM154

Stock Removal Carbon:
1. 1080, 1084, or 1095
2. L-6 or 15N20
3. Nicholson Black Diamond files (1095 w/higher carbon content)
4. O-1
5. 52100

Forging steels:
1. 1050
2. 1080 or 1095
3. 1084 or 15N20
4. O-1
5. 52100

Don't ask me why I think this way, It's only a result of thousands of opinions discussed and debated herein and elsewhere that has 'forged' these ideas in my head.

Some of why these steels are listed in this order is attributed to the quality of knife which CAN be obtained through stock-removal or forging respectively. Another consideration (mostly with the forging steels) is the desirabilty of these steels among smiths. It seems that 1084 is the favorite forging steel for most, but O-1 is the steel most used for cutting competition blades. 52100 seems to be Ed Caffreys favorite for a high performance blade and I have come to respect his opinion on most things having to do with forging (got all the videos )

Like I said, this is not an academic list! So don't come down on me like a ton of bricks! I just thought it would be interesting to guage how we think about steels against one another since we all hang out here on TKN, but have other influences as well.

If your favorite steel is not listed. I just have not considered it a steel that I'm interested in working with at this time.

For this knife, I'll go with a stainless. I just think that's what people prefer on a kitchen knife. I may try CPM154, just for the experience.


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  #68  
Old 12-05-2006, 06:13 PM
AlanR AlanR is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drac
The main problem I had when trying to use a 4 x 36 was getting good radiuses because the belt didn't track to a sharp corner. Mine had a very wide radius and I gave up on it until I got a 1 x 42.
I'm a newbie and using a 4x36. After my first knife, I took the sander up to my workplace and used a nice cutoff wheel to make two "window" cuts that come to just inside each side of the belt when it's centered. These windows are about 3" tall if you're looking at the platen or face of the sander. They go about .75" deep and take out the rounded corner completely so I can get right up on the belt. Before it was impossible to get a plunge cut, now I can make an attempt at a decent flat grind. Maybe this cheap tip can help you and keep you from buying a new sander for a while.

I'm currently planning on making a custom sander or buying a KMG. I know everyone will tell me to buy the KMG, but I like to fiddle with things, we'll see.


-AlanR
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  #69  
Old 12-05-2006, 06:30 PM
dmarx dmarx is offline
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If the Kith is still open, I'd like to get in. Just getting back into knifemaking after a 25 year layoff. Wanted to try a slicer and dicer soon anyway, so it would work out just right.

Dave
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  #70  
Old 12-06-2006, 08:26 AM
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Red face

I never could get a good blade from a 4 x 36. See I told you that there were smarter people around here than me!!

Andy, I wasn't putting them down in the least. I have worked with 440C and it is a great steel. Fairly easy to work, easy to finish and will take a great HT. I chose the CPM's because they have a better edge retention and seem to be as tough as you can make stainless. The tradeoffs are they are a pain to grind, a bigger pain to finish (though CPM154 is blowing that away), ware out belts & sand paper quickly, and are a pain for the customer to sharpen. As for O1, since I haven't worked with it I probably should have not said anything. I was mostly going on what I've learned around here and have read from those who do forging.

Despite what the mags say there is no perfect/super steel. It is always a tradeoff of one form or another.

Mostly what I was meaning is that most custom people wouldn't work with the ones below this, such ac 420 or 440A/B. I will put a qualifier that again I haven't worked with these but I have used blades made out of them and they sucked.

Got to love humble pie first thing in the morning.

Andy I have been using CPM154 quite a bit lately. There is a lot to like about it. It works a little harder than ATS34 but no where as difficult as S30V. When I called Crucible (I'm lucky that they are local to me ) to ask them about it the run down I got is that this is basically an American RWL30. Granted than is just a powdered form of ATS34 which is a Japanese version of 154. Funny how it comes right back to where we started, huh? Anyways it shares a lot of the characteristics of RWL. It takes a very fine finish with very little work. Per Crucible it also has a couple points higher toughness than the original 154. I am not that great of a HTer (actually I?m barely passable) that I notice the difference or that hard of a user to see it there either. I went with it due to the clean nature of the steel, been having problems with ATS & 154.

Doc & Dave you are added to the list, welcome aboard, have fun and ignore the man behind the drapes . With what I saw of your other works Doc you won't have any problems. Fit and finish are good and that is one of the hardest lessons learned around here.

Jim


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Last edited by Drac; 12-06-2006 at 09:15 AM.
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  #71  
Old 12-07-2006, 02:31 AM
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Andrew Garrett Andrew Garrett is offline
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Yea, I'm looking forward to trying that CPM stuff. I know it'll make a good knife..., I just hope I have a belt or two left when I finish!

Do you do your own HT? If so, what kind of set-up do you use?


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  #72  
Old 12-07-2006, 07:39 AM
AcridSaint AcridSaint is offline
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Doc, S30V is going to be near impossible on a 4x36, the stuff is just too tough in my opinion. The disc will allow you to flat grind a little easier and is what I would use if I still had the disc on my 4x36! After using a real grinder for a while I can say that I finally understand why everyone thought I was crazy working on a 4x36, but I'm still glad that's how I started.

I like Alan's idea about cutting the platen, but you can also put a raised platen on it, glue on a flat piece of glass or similar. I've never had terrible tracking problems on a 4x36, always managed to get the belt where I wanted it, but the sides of my platen are rounded, not square, so it's not really possible to do plunges with the stock setup... guess that's why they make files

Also, the harder you use the 4x36, the less flat and even the platen will be, another reason to consider something flat to stick under the belt.


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  #73  
Old 12-07-2006, 08:02 AM
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I have a front loader kiln that I use with plate quenching & canned air (compressor is on wish list). A true HT oven is also on the list, unfortunately due to its price it is way done on that list.

Jim


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  #74  
Old 12-07-2006, 11:38 PM
Doc Hollywood Doc Hollywood is offline
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Well I just ordered some steel and when it arrives I will see about starting the griniding process. I talked to Paul Boz today about the heat treating. Hopefully I won't make too many mistakes. I am hoping to start with a large knife and if it comes out the size of a paring knife you know I made a lot of mistakes.
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  #75  
Old 12-08-2006, 05:44 AM
dmarx dmarx is offline
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Hey Doc, that's funny. I think we've all been there, dun that a time or two or three. I was making a drop point hunter once and my hand slipped; I ended up with a great little clip point Bird & Trout knife to add to the catalog. (turned out to be one of my best sellers back then) So don't fret about it; we hopefully all learn from our screwups. Besides, that's when it gets to be fun.

Ok, this is my first KITH and I've been searching and haven't found much info on any completed Kith's. How do these things work? Outside of start and finish what are the rules per se? Do we post progress or after completion? I know, I'm a pain in the butt.

Dave
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