Definition of "forged"...

I agree that most failure starts on the surface, but it may also indicate things going on inside the steel. If hammer texture is left on a finished blade it is very important to know how to inspect the surface for signs of surface fatigue. If there are any signs of surface fatigue, stretch marks, hot fractures, rips, tears or wrinkles, "yes", they do need to be ground off. It is especially important to grind the edge portion of the blade, free from texture or flaws, prior to heat treating and avoid quenching through the hammer textured areas.

I had this idea for a homemade "hammer press" a long time ago. Virgil England actually built a similar hammer, without the pressing action. He's had good luck with it in terms of forming metal. but hasn't done any tests on the grain refinement that I know of. Anyway, what my idea was,... was to built a hammer press, with a floating ram made from a pneumatic pavement breaker and have pressure control behind the ram with the ability to raise and lower it with a foot control. It would simultaneously squeeze and hammer the steel with very light rapid blows.

[Ed Fowler]

I find the though very interesting, the only problem would be the cooling action of the dies. If you could keep the steel up to temp this would be one way to put a lot of force into the forging action.

Years ago some folks did a study as to which method refined grain to a greater degree, press vrs hammer. They found the hammer refined the grain the most. Your thoughts would be a blend of the two., maybe.

Ed, as long as we get the results we are after, I don't think it's so important how or why. Which ever way works for you with the tools you have. We both agree, that you can over stress the steel by forging it too fast or incorrectly. The temptation for more speed and more force was just too great with the Nazel 3B, at least for me. If I were to set up another power hammer it would be like the one I described. Virgil hasn't mentioned any problems with chilling the steel with his hammer, but he did say it pinches the steel and you have to use some muscle to push and pull it through the dies. The dies are relatively small and may preheat just from the forging, I don't know.

Ed, I think the how and why of it are only important when we are trying to explain it to someone else. However, even if we did explain how and why, whether or not we could convince anyone, remains to be seen.

With the "how" of it,... I look for the most efficient way.

Back when I started bladesmithing in the 70s, grain refinement through forging was more or less universally accepted. However, over the years many smiths seem to have reneged on it, and claim that it's entirely thermal. What happened? Steel is still steel, isn't it?

I don't care for the term "packing", because it implies "compressing or compacting" particles or objects closer together and tightening the spaces between them. I don't think that's what it's doing. I just refer to it as "grain refinement".

[Ed Fowler]

I always try to remember to put the word 'packing' in the little quotes. I also remember when'packing' was considered a part of forging blades. A metalurgist from Canada, as I remember requested that any bladesmith who felt that he had 'packed' an edge to send him a sample. He stated that he had never witnessed the event and would like to see it.
He got no responses!

I was too green at the time to consider myslef competant to send him a sample blade.

I totally agree that the word 'packing' is misleading, and probably too simple to define what actually happens.


There will always be a lot to learn about the simple tool, lady knife. The many variables that await our explanation are astronomical.

The Battle Institute book has a photo of the stress risers encouraged by simply drilling a round hole in a piece of steel. Amazing stuff, instead of a ripple effect (droping a stone in a pool of water) the stress radiates in an amazing pattern that I would never have predicted.

I now know why Bill Scagel cut eliptical holes in his blades for folders. He obviously knew about the risers from a round hole. Steel with an eliptical hole is much stronger than steel with a round hole.

The questions, the knowledge know no bounds.

[rhrocker]

Originally Posted by Ed Fowler

I now know why Bill Scagel cut eliptical holes in his blades for folders. He obviously knew about the risers from a round hole. Steel with an eliptical hole is much stronger than steel with a round hole.

.

Robert said:

Interesting! I never knew Mr. Scagel cut eliptical holes in his folder blades. You guys are making me smarter every day. (Well, at least you're giving me the knowledge to be smarter every day with ).

[Keith Montgomery]

I personally don't consider it forged if the smith didn't do at least some hammer work.

[Gene Chapman]

Keith, just for grins, plugged your location into google Earth, it showed up at Edmonton airport

[Dwane Oliver]

WOW , way too much information to absorb all at once. Great postings from Tai and Ed , true maters of the craft.
Would it then be safe to say that if you were to profile a blade with a plasma cutter , normalise , then raise to proper forging temp and " pack " the cutting edge , with light hammer strokes , then finish. Would this blade be of better quality than if it were just profiled , normalised , then finished? Of course bolth would be heat treated the same way.
The only diffrence between the two blades , would be that one had more " grain refinement" on the edge.
I built a new forge and am trying to decide what to do with it , all my stock is already flat....

[Ed Fowler]

My suggestion: Try it and test the blades against each other and see which works best.
You will never know with out testing, and should never accept anyone's word on which works best.
Don't forget to try multiple normanizing cycles.
Good Luck!

[Tai Google]

Originally Posted by Dwane Oliver

WOW , way too much information to absorb all at once. Great postings from Tai and Ed , true maters of the craft.
Would it then be safe to say that if you were to profile a blade with a plasma cutter , normalise , then raise to proper forging temp and " pack " the cutting edge , with light hammer strokes , then finish. Would this blade be of better quality than if it were just profiled , normalised , then finished? Of course bolth would be heat treated the same way.
The only diffrence between the two blades , would be that one had more " grain refinement" on the edge.
I built a new forge and am trying to decide what to do with it , all my stock is already flat....

My opinion is that the low temp forging cycles and the hardening cycle will do more for the steel in terms of grain refinement than the normalizing cycles,... "IF" the two procedures are done correctly. Normalizing is meant to "stress relieve" the steel as a prep for stock reduction and the hardening cycle after the low temperature forging. However, if the procedures aren't done correctly they may result in fractures, fatigue and embrittlement. So, there is always a risk.

All else being equal, grain refinement, hardness and strength comes as a "byproduct of the overall bladesmithing process",... forging, normalizing and hardening and tempering. This is the way of the bladesmith...

For stock reduction,... grind, normalize, harden and temper. It's actually quite hard to beat!... Less risk, less chances for error, and less stress to the steel.

[Tai Google]

Normalizing is to "stress relieve" the steel, and quenching is to "harden" the steel.

Multiple normalizing and quenching for the purpose of "grain refinement",... is not correct.

[Dwane Oliver]

Thanks Ed and Tai for the response's.

[Tai Google]

As far as I know, there isn't any bladesmithing procedure, (or procedures), specifically designed for grain refinement,... Forging and stock reduction are to get the "form and geometry" of the blade,... normalizing is to "stress relieve" the blade,... quenching is to "harden" the blade, and tempering is to draw the hardness back for "strength".

However, if the entire process is "done correctly", the overall cumulative effect will result in a hard and resilient blade with a very refined grain structure.

Rock on!

[Tai Google]

It is a gross misconception that the more one works the steel the better it gets.

Although this may be true up to a point, going beyond that point may do more damage than good,... or just waste time and energy. Since one can never be sure at exactly what point that is, because of the nature of the craft and the material itself... it is always wise to stay on the safe side of the line.

Don't force the steel or take unnecessary risks.

The basics are all that is necessary to make an excellent high performance blade.

Testing is of the greatest value when we are not sure of the methods and materials we are using. If we are confident with our methods and show consistently excellent results over a period of time through testing,... then importance of testing diminishes...

In many cases, the testing has already been done.