Definition of "forged"...

[SPryor]

Ok, I'm having a friendly debate with someone that say all formed metal of ANY kind is "forged". Even if injection molded, milled, cast, or even if I bend it with my hands or whatever.

The dictionary's definition is: "v. forged, forg?ing, forg?es
v. tr.

To form (metal, for example) by heating in a forge and beating or hammering into shape.
To form (metal) by a mechanical or hydraulic press. "

This is in agreement with my own definition of forged.

What say you guys? If I bend a piece of metal in my hands, or cast it, etc...is it "forged"..?

[Bob Warner]

I would suggest that forging means to move the metal into a shape by forcing it to take that shape. Hand hammering, hydraulic pressure, drop forging and I guess even bending.

However, I would not consider pouring liquid metal into a mold as forging, that would be casting.


BUT, under these terms, my motorcycle would be considered "Forged." Anyone want to buy a "Forged" 1100cc motorcycle?

[Ray Rogers]

Well, not ALL formed metal of any kind. For instance, the definition you provided would not include a knife (or other object) made my grinding the metal into the desired form. So, the definition your friend is using for 'formed metal' and the definition that the dictionary and Bob are using are not the same. The dictionary clearly excludes stock removal forming and Bob's casting example and your friend seems to include them. Therefore, your friend would seem to be incorrect due to his overly broad definition .....

[sdcb27]

Was me Ray and i was specifically refering to knife steel. I said nothing about casting at all or injction molding i have no idea about injection molding steel.
The original reason we came about this came from Kevin Cashens article. And i said (to Steve) it was all forged if you stock remove or not. Where and why casting and mold injection would come from a article about knife steel, youd have to ask him
i did say all metal but ment steel for knives, and did correct myself saying all steel ect ect, but i do say in the strictest form the a definition of forging is to form. Specifically to form one shape to another i.e. if you forge a relationship, are you not shaping one. If you forge metal, hot or cold, its still forging if you use a rolling mill, hammer or your hands, and if you are making blades from stock steel and using stock removal that steel STILL has been forged at some point, in other words at the mill.
I as you know do alot of blacksmithing, some things i make are candle holder out of 1/4 round that requires no heat due to the size of steel, i scroll it up cold in a jig and various other things, am i not forging if the definition is to form. I realize its a strict sense of the word but other definitions say "to hammer" so using a rolling mill or press is no longer forging?
Forge \Forge\, To form or shape out in any way; to produce;
Regaurdless it had to do more with the aruement you gave then steves, every peice of steel you Ray grind a blade on has been forged, thats my point , my story and im sticking to it.

[SPryor]

No actually you also said casting was forging. Then tried say say all blade steels. What about dendritic [sp] "steel"? It is cast, and I doubt that it is "forged" at any time. Well, maybe by the time it's done you have forged a relationship.

[Ray Rogers]

We are playing with semantics here, no doubt. While it is true that a piece of blade steel in the form of bar stock was forged to get it that way the act of grinding it into a knife blade does not fit the definition of forging. So, the steel has been through a forging process but the blade in this case was not forged to shape or forged at all according to the commonly accepted meaning of the term 'forged blade'.

Casting could fit the definition if the metal was forced into a particular shape under some form of pressure during the casting process. I believe that CPM steels like S30V may fit this description. The metal is cast into ingots and the ingots are hot rolled into sheets and bars.

The original question was generally phrased and not specific to knife making. There may not be a dictionary definition relating to forged blades but my definition would be that if the blade is not substantially forged to shape then the blade is not 'forged' for the purpose of our descriiptions to potential customers where truth in advertising is paramount....

[hammerdownnow]

Is that what Steve and Romey do on pal talk when no one is there to referee them? heehee. Don't bounce me or I'll bounce ya back!

[Bowi]

Steve is pall talk knifemakers room ever open any more ?
Rold in the mill is a form of forging -hammering or pressing in our shop is also foirging to make steel chang shapes is im sure some type of forging .
BOWIE

[Bowi]

I should be asking you Ray Steve in some song room .
BOWIE

[Ed Fowler]

All steel may be forged, unless it is cast. I feel the definition of 'forged' should include a reduction ratio by forging to make the statement inclusive.

[hammerdownnow]

Good to see you back online Bowie. The room is still up. Lets all meet there tonight and catch up on things.

[sdcb27]

[QUOTE=Ray Rogers]"We are playing with semantics here, no doubt. While it is true that a piece of blade steel in the form of bar stock was forged"
This was the whole point i was trying to convey. Folks can like it or not but its been forged and as such the heat treating process started waaaay back at the mill. And you have to go to exstremes to find where its not As Steve says "dendritic [sp] "steel"? Far out side the exstremes of normal steel conversation for MOST peoples realm of conversation when you say "STEEL" unless of course if your trying to to be right for the sake of being right

[SPryor]

[QUOTE=sdcb27]

Originally Posted by Ray Rogers

"We are playing with semantics here, no doubt. While it is true that a piece of blade steel in the form of bar stock was forged"
This was the whole point i was trying to convey. Folks can like it or not but its been forged and as such the heat treating process started waaaay back at the mill. And you have to go to exstremes to find where its not As Steve says "dendritic [sp] "steel"? Far out side the exstremes of normal steel conversation for MOST peoples realm of conversation when you say "STEEL" unless of course if your trying to to be right for the sake of being right

No, that would be the ones that use the extremes of "even if it's bent by hand, it's forging". The real fact is that you argued for hours that "ALL way of forming METAL was forging". That, my friend, simply is WRONG. Even in MOST peoples realm.

[SPryor]

Originally Posted by Bowi

Steve is pall talk knifemakers room ever open any more ?
BOWIE

IF you'd check in on occasion you'd know, now wouldn't you?

[Andrew Garrett]

As a stock-removalist, I don't buy round bar and grind it flat. I buy blade steel in desired thicknesses for a particular blade. Thus, I have allowed the mill to 'forge' the steel to the desired thickness.

The grain still runs tip to handle doesn't it?
Smiths still do some measure of stock removal on their blades don't they?
Unless it is a primative finsh, no exposed surface of the finished steel is as it was when the hammering was done. Correct?

It seems that the primary (not only) difference is the point. As I understand from Ed Caffrey's vdeo, the forged blade has grain that tapers a the tip due to hammering. The stock-removal blade does not.

Perhaps makers should declare to what degree their blades are forged to their final demensions in order to be as honest as possible. A stock removal guy could indicate that his blades are "forged to thickness" or "mill forged" for the beneift of the uninitiated. A smith could advertise that his work is "forged 90% to shape". Primative makers might use, "100% forged to shape and edge-ground" (because, where the steel does its cutting..., that's always stock removal).

In the end, a good knife can be made a lot of different ways.

Cheers!