Forged blades - why not hollow ground?

[Predator]

Convex,flat, hollow grind,I think it is a matter of choice and depends on what the knifes job is going to be.I personally like convex grind and Flat for I`m into Bowies,Daggers and Scandi type of blades.I personally do not feel my level is up to hollow grinding, so if I want a hollow grind , I just buy a good one.

[AwP]

Besides J. Loose's comment of "it's cool", which it certainly is, another reason for making your own steel is for wootz, you can't just call admiral or some other supplier to get that. Closest you could come is to contact one of those few individuals making it and see if they're willing to sell some. Also for historical pieces, home smelted steel is more likely to be similer to what the ancients used.

[J.Arthur Loose]

Originally Posted by AwP

Besides J. Loose's comment of "it's cool", which it certainly is, another reason for making your own steel is for wootz, you can't just call admiral or some other supplier to get that. Closest you could come is to contact one of those few individuals making it and see if they're willing to sell some. Also for historical pieces, home smelted steel is more likely to be similer to what the ancients used.

Right on, right on.

[Belstain]

I flat grind for a few reasons.

#1 I like to see just how flat I can make it. I want absolutely perfect flats without even the slightest of waves or ripples.


#2 Unless you have a really huge contact wheel it's hard to make a hollow grind that's thin enough at the edge to slice good without being too thin right behind the edge or too fat at the spine. If you make the edge .005 thick there's no reason to have half the blade width .125 thick. Its just extra weight. The edge will be destroyed long before you need the extra strength.


#3 I don't like plunges. I like to carry my grinds all the way under the handle scales. That is very hard to do if things aren't perfectly flat. As soon as I get a bigger contact wheel I'm going to try it though.


(#2 doesn't hold true for every knife design,narrow blades can be hollow ground very good with a smaller wheel. My blades are usually too wide for it to work good.)










As for forging and hollow grinding. Most knifemakers don't have a big enough contact wheel to take a hollow grind all the way to the spine on a wide blade. If your flats aren't perfectly flat then your grind line will wander. In order to pull it off you first have to flat grind the flats then you still have to hollow grind the bevels. Twice the work for half the knife.

[VSMBlades]

Mr. Fisher,

I was trying to look at your Website to see some of your work and all I get is the page source. Is there anything you could recomend to remedy this situation?

Oh yeah, the reason I dont hollow grind is that you cant do it very well with files and sandpaper by hand, or at least I havent figured out how to yet.

Neo Tribal is my game currently, recycled steel and hand tools.

[Larry Harley]

[QUOTE=Jay Fisher]Hi, all. Yep, it's a touchy subject, and you won't like this post, but it needs to be said.
I don't often comment on makers' techniques, but I'd like to clarify a few statements made through the eyes of a professional, full-time, long term USING knife maker (I'm not using, they are ), who's made over a thousand knives in a 24 year career.

jay thats not really that many knives to be useing as an example
the bigest reason i can see(and i have ground several thousand more than u ) is that its easyr faster and whole lots easyr to mirror polish
a hollow gring jigs its self up on the wheel to polish it allu gotta do is run through progressively finer and finer belts 2 buffing wheels for about 10 or 15 min and its done
if u buff longer than that u r buffing scratches that shopuld have been ground out on the grinder
hollow grinds do have there place in small to med knives
BUT i can flat grind the same knife and it will have superoir performance from the physics of the cut
it seems to me most of uall r talking about inferror flat ground knives


I have a reputation of having some of the best hollow grinds in the world.
I hollow grind all my blades except those that require a different grind. Those would be knives so thin that a hollow grind cannot be done (such as a .0625" fillet knife which gets a taper or flat grind,

(i hollow grind fillet knives that thin
stop grinding at 10 thous.
i just made a straight razor that was ground to 5
so please stop telling everyone how good u r and how because of these few 1000 knives u have ground that your opinion is a viable test for hollow grinds
all grinds die w use thats a given)



or a heavy chopper (such as a large machete type knife). That falls in line with the durability aspect of a thicker cross sectional area, which is absolutely required on some knives.
this is a miscinception heavey choppers and all knives past mid size wouild benefit from PROPERLEY ground flat grind


There is a place for flat, and convex (taper) grinds for sure.
But most knives benefit from a hollow grind.

(i take exception to what u say becaus u say it so didacteley
as in above)
(again most knives DONOT benefit from a holllow grind)


Why? For several reasons, the most important being the use of the knife. One has only to look at a 35 year sharpening consultant's text (John Juranitch), and find that thinness is essential in a truly sharp edge. deed a factory knife or a flat grind can be rendered a chisel by several sharpenings, due to the owner's inability to correctly relieve the edge.

(only if the knife is ground improperley)


(Edge relief, what's that?) That's the removal of stock behind the cutting edge to render the geometry correct to allow a 25 degree or less angle on the sharpening stone for a true, sharp edge. (I really recommend Juranitch's book, this guy knows what he's talking



In that respect, NOTHING can be sharper for a longer period of use than a hollow grind.
(again i think u r compareing improperley flat ground knives to hollow ground knives)
they all be come geometrically unuseable over time the flat grind not a min. sooner than a hollow grind)


Why don't more makers use a hollow grind? Hollow grinding is very difficult to do properly!
(bull crap)

It takes literally years of practice to hollow grind off hand, and that is the only way to grind and keep the edge uniformly thin.

(more bull crap )


you can't use a jig effectively (I know I'm going to catch a lot of flac here) because the jig would have to follow the perpendicular intersection of the edge's profile at every point. Therfore, the grinder would have to compensate for every curve of the blade, the belly, the shank, and the tip with as close to perfect control, with a numerous amount of different blade shapes! Yeow!
by your fingertips, often with your face in very close proximity, often with limited protection (you have to feel what your doing), and you approach the contact wheel and belt with a very thin edge, the chance of you leaning the edge toward the belt a little too far is great.

I teach professional grinding,

(i do too and flat grinding is much harder and lots more dangerouis that grinding on the hollow because its jiged up by the wheel)

so here goes: You WILL slip. It's not IF, it's WHEN. And when you do, the thin edge will cut through the grinding belt, slice into the contact wheel, and maybe into the hub of the wheel, capture the knife blade, slam it into the tool rest, or into the machine itself, or GOD FORBID, fly into your femoral artery, and open it to the sky, and you'll have about ten steps toward the door before you're graveyard dead (yes, it's happened to several knifemakers).

(yep)

So proper hollow grinding requires an intimate knowledge of safety, geometry, and technique, only borne out through years of practice and (hopefully only a few) near misses. Most guys find it easier and less expensive to just flat grind or convex grind.

(its just the opposite!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
most guys find it much easyer to hollow gring and popish the resulting hollow!!!!!!!!!!)

There were several references to durability here, and I'm offended. I want to set this straight. Modern tool steels when properly heat treated and tempered are VERY tough. That's why they're created in near labratory conditions by expert metallurgists. These guys know what they're doing. They're not hammering together bicycle chains and railroad spikes. We have the best steels ever created, and they're carefully controlled in the manufacturing process, cleanly constructed, regularly tested, balanced with just the right mixture of elements and compounds and alloys to create an outstanding tool. Yes, they're expensive, and some are not very beautiful (like M2). But when your making knives for the miltary, SWAT teams, emergency response units, bomb squads, etc, these guys want the best, toughest, most homogenous, uniform, regulated, and controlled tool steel available. So do most hunters, and definitely collectors. I'm not saying that there is no place for forged knives, quite the contrary. Many collectors and users would have nothing else, there is quite a bit of romance in the vision of the big, burly, sweaty guy swinging a hammer over exploding embers, and what he creates from his bare hands.

(its not romance that sells forged knives its performance
and rather than answer each trite little swipe u make in the rest of your diatribe here
how bought just meeting me in fl at the guild show at the cutting comp. u bring your hollow ground bowie and ill forge one flat ground!!!

rather than set here and blow about how many knives ive made and what branch of service ive got knives in id rather put up or shut up
so fellow guild member bring on down to fla
i,ll show u big burley and romanticxxooxoxooo





And there are many profiles of knives that cannot be economically made from existing stock. And there is damascus, which deserves it's very own world of creation, collection, and use. But no military and tactical user I've dealt with (and I've served hundreds) wants a knife that has welds, potential points of weakness or non-uniform stresses. Toughness? What knife is used to chop? Maybe some light chopping, but in all the hundreds and hundreds of hollow ground blades I've made, not one has ever failed. Knife owners who purchase a fine knife know better than to pry, dig, or chop down trees with the knife, after all, it is not an axe. And if you're grinding a knife like an axe, it's ... well... and axe!

I know you're not going to like this post, especially if your a person who has said a hollow grind is inferior and I take offense to that.

Any axe can chop any knife in half, eventually. A hollow grind makes a superior CUTTING edge, that is why on very fine handmade custom knives, a hollow grind is not only desired, it is adored. High precision hollow grinds are very difficult to produce, and to bring them to mirror polish takes considerable skill. Collectors, users, and buyers mostly prefer hollow grinds in non-forged blades unless they're damascus, and the forging is specifically for appearance. But remember, each layer or band constitutes a weld, a potential area of stress, and most military combat knife users don't trust them.

Why do you think makers get paid so much for a hollow grind? If properly executed, they offer many more years of service than a flat or convex or taper grind, which are rendered thick after several sharpenings. Hollow grinds are thin, sharp, and devastating. With modern tool steels, when properly treated and constructed, are very tough and usable. If you don't think they're tough enough, I'll put you in contact with several USAF Pararescuemen, our nation's top military rescue service, some US Army 101st Airborne, some SWAT team members, State Police, tactical rescue teams, emergency response teams, Rangers, bomb squad commanders, and hardcore guides, outfitters, and roofers (yes, roofers, those guys KILL knives) who will all testify to the toughness, durability, and reliability of a properly hollow ground edge. And then there are collectors, who pay thousands of dollars for hollow ground knives...

There is a reason most
(say some not most!!!)



fine blades are hollow ground. It's about time someone set the record straight.


If you don't know me, feel free to investigate my site.

To clarify: there are places for both types of grinds. There is a lot of hyperbole in the knifeselling world. (Yes, I say knifeselling, which is different from knifemaking) Ask a hard-core knife user. To say one is "inferior" is way off base




if u dont know me investigate my sight
harley
www.lonesomepineknives.com

[SharpByCoop]

Anybody else hear the elephant song somewhere in the background.....getting stronger

Uh-oh... Stampede!!!

Coop

[Mark Williams]

(more bull crap )

You better watch out there possum. That sounds like a veiled poop to me

[Phantom23]

Ed Caffrey,

You indicated that:

As far as I know there are only a couple of steels that were ever produced with the express intent of knife blades in mind.

If you wouldn't mind - what are they?

I never thought too much about it, but now I need to know.

Thanks

Phantom23

[blgoode]

"I have a reputation of having some of the best hollow grinds in the world. " - Jay Fisher


Thats where I stoped reading....


I'd take a flat ground knife to the bush over a hollow grind anyday. Its all in the intended use of the knife. An axe with a hollow grind will sure look cool but wont get much use I dont think. A folded over edge isnt much use. But then again...why am I even getting into this thread.....seems like I smell something on my shoe... Oh. Thats the crap I am walking in.

[blgoode]

Originally Posted by Larry Harley

so here goes: You WILL slip. It's not IF, it's WHEN. And when you do, the thin edge will cut through the grinding belt, slice into the contact wheel, and maybe into the hub of the wheel, capture the knife blade, slam it into the tool rest, or into the machine itself, or GOD FORBID, fly into your femoral artery, and open it to the sky, and you'll have about ten steps toward the door before you're graveyard dead (yes, it's happened to several knifemakers).

Any hints on preventing this Harley?

[Ron Claiborne]

ya what larry said

it was also said that Damascus was ---unless they're damascus, and the forging is specifically for appearance. But remember, each layer or band constitutes a weld, a potential area of stress, and most military combat knife users don't trust them.
i find this very strange i must have been dreaming or drunk or something . i found myself in the deep south with a bunch of the big, burly, sweaty guy swinging a hammer over exploding embers, and what he creates from his bare hands. type people hum where did that come from , but any way they had this cutting thing where a bunch of the sweatyburly guys were about to chop cut slice pock just to see ifen they can break crack or dull them -- weard a . but it was somthing to see ,each man would walk up with all the trust in the world that his knife was the best that day lots of knives but no stockremoval knive there becouse that was the rules all had to he forges all larg knive like one might us in o say war -- but move things along all did there best and they were fearce comptition, jok were made fun was had ,, but they were this one Guy that was from the north and remember he was in the deep dark south.
it was the common for each person to name ther knife thiss guy with him thick glass and pincel protector named his Genreal Surman miss spell i think but down here we try to not spell his nam right or often
I liked him right off he showed his guts or was carrying a gun to , or maybe he felt life wernt worth living i dont know why he did what he did but he did . we watched it go own seamed like for ever but in the end this guy with surmen had taken all was proud of him and he could make that knife do all the thing them southern boy could dream up they it seamed looked at his knfe a little longer than others but it was ok erver time he and surman to top place best over all cutting champ i was proud of him he mad more frinds that day than a brand new puppy why you say to my surprise the blade was pattern welded steel ( you know that stuff that beaks so easy HEHEHE)--i noe i nerver got to see ifen it were flat ground or hollow i would not get that close becouse i thought it might reach out and cut me me being a southeren and all

but i read any and every thing he might print he
may be he will tell us the grind and if he would be feard to go to war with it

Marry Christmas Kevin Cashen

[SharpByCoop]

A reminder that we have a 'Code of Ethics' here in The Knife Network that surpasses any other forum.

It's OK to have some fun and also have some spirit in discussions we don't agree about, but let's ALL come back to center and learn something. Being civil and gentlemanly is appropriate even if you don't agree. That's why I like it so much here.

Coop

[Ed Caffrey]

The only two steels that I know of, that were ever created with knife blades in mind are what Loveless had made up (later it became 154CM) and Crucible's S30V. I'm uncertain if the origonal steel that Loveless had produced was actually todays 154CM, but am sure that this is were 154CM came from. As for the S30V, I remeber speaking with the folks at Crucible a few years back, and they were very excited about this new "knife" steel they were working on.

Most of the various steels we use today in knifemaking have their origins as one industirial application or another.........at some point each was adapted to knives. That's the reason you always hear me taunting to experiment with heat treatments.....you can't just go by the book and expect to get the best product in terms of heat treatment when your using a steel that was developed for a total different application.

If anyone else knows of a steel that was designed specifically for knife blades, speak up and educate me, I sure as heck don't know it all, and am always seeking to learn.

[blgoode]

Good reminder Coop