Forged blades - why not hollow ground?

[Kevin R. Cashen]

Originally Posted by Mark Williams

I must be a knife God.
I found hollow grinding to be far easier than flat or true convex. Once "the groove" is established, it seems to fall into place. I love the look of a hollow grind above all others. But seeing as I've gone over to the dark side "Forging" I dont get much call for a hollow grind.

I must admit that I and plenty of grinders I know have found the same thing, Mark. Wether we are doing it right or not- I dunno. I am a heretic, in that I grind most of my fullers into my swords after forging, and that is a big hollow grind right in the center of the blade. In addition to the Celtic piece I mentioned above, I have seen many original medieval and renaisance pieces with lots of hollow grinding, and it looks really good!

[SKIVIE]

Steve ole Buddy, Whatever religion you practice your doing something right. Id stick to what your doing. Finding your own niche is whats so cool about all this.

Listening to everyone and there opinions is why I like this so much. Can you imagine if everyone had the Loveless style and thats it.....it would get pretty boring eventually.

Shane

[Jay Fisher]

By the way, I flat grind, convex grind, taper grind, hollow grind, and mill, pierce, groove, cut, engrave, chisel, form, shape, and yes, even once in a great while forge!
The creative process grows in words. It's neat to have that happening here.

For the suggestion that a knifemaker knows more about how to treat his steel than the manufacturer, I offer these points. To some degree, we all work with what we have. Gone (I hope) are the days when the "purist" says only he knows what great qualities a steel may offer. Unless he is a developmental scientific metalurgist (like the guys at Nortwestern U. making super dragonslayer steel), a maker does not have the wherewithall to custom craft his own steel. What does the purist, do, start by minining the ore out of the ground? And then only GOD has created the raw materials for him to work with...

To say that there are few specific modern steels that are designed with knives in mind may be relevant, but by no means exclusionary. There are MANY steels that will make a perfectly fine, usable, and wonderful knife! That's the neat thing about this journey, don't you think? Sure, like most, I have my favorites, but am always looking for new and exciting tasks and creations. No blanket statements accepted here, at all.
BTW, experimentation is the heart of an artists journey. If we all made 4" drop points with a stag handle, there would only be cheaper, quicker developments to make to survive.

I've heard it said that this business model can be developed by a rule of fourths:
One fourth of your time for production
One fourth of your time for accounting
One fourth of your time for advertising
One fourth of your time for experimentation and development

I, like most people like to work in production and experimentation and development. That way I can continue to grow!

I hope you all are growing too.

[TexasJack]

Careful, Jay! I didn't advocate "forging all blades". I merely pointed out that it's an avenue of creation that deserves due respect.

As to the quality of steel, I again cite the various posts on this forum regarding quality problems. Even the "best steels ever created" (to quote you) are not perfect. (You cite 2 cases yourself!) I don't think it fair to disparage those who create the steels for their blades.

I agree with you on the poor rep for stainless being based on old 420 steels and such. There are some great alloys available now. They add greatly to the variety of materials available for knife creation.

You, Ed, and I are all in agreement on factory knives - including those with hollow grinds. I think the point is that many factory blades are made that way to be attractive, not to be useful, and that really excludes them from the discussion of which grind is "better".

And, finally, for Steve and Jay, I didn't advocate any particular grind. This is a great discussion of the pros and cons of each. Looks to me like both grinds work, but the overall knife construction may affect how well. The original question was NOT which is better, but why most who forge don't hollow grind (in Coop's experience). This thread seems to indicate that the answer is complex, but based upon experience and not just habit.

[SteveS]

Good point Jack (going back to the original question). Maybe it's as simple as "most people that buy forged blades are looking for 'bowie' sized jobs. People that make that sized blade like convex grinds."

This begs questions like "why do they like forged blades?" Or "Do they want a bowie and those happen to be forged." Or is it "They like forged and those happen to be bowies."

Maybe it's hidden tang hunters someone likes and there's a lot of excellent makers forging those. Or is it the other way around - hidden tang collectors like forged blades and hunters are cool examples.

---------------------------------------
I'm saying the answer to the original question might be that market forces and maker's preferences just ended up with few knives with the combination of hand forged and hollow grind. In otherwords, it's not a bad combo; it's just life.

Steve

BTW As has been hashed out before, most western knives over the years were hand ground on huge wheels - making the hollow. So we've shown times have changed.

[Jay Fisher]

"Texas Jack", I'd prefer if you didn't tell me to be "careful." That sounds a bit like a veiled threat.

I didn't claim that you're an advocate for forging all blades, did I? Hmmm.

And as for the quality of tool steels, I'll say AGAIN: in 24 years of making, in over a thousand knives, I've only had two bad experiences. And in one, they just sent the wrong bar of steel. So it's only one experience in over a thousand blades. Get it? That's one in a thousand times. For that minor experience (and on the whole it is very minor) do you advocate not trusting all manufacturers?

And I'm insulted that you would even think that I'm disparaging ANYONE. If you think that, you're wrong, or simply trying to portray me in a bad light. It won't work, whoever you are. You know exactly who I am.

And you go on to use the phrase "those who create the steels for their blades." I'm willing to bet that few, very few "create" their steels. Do they actually take raw iron ore and make steel "from scratch?" Gee, I guess I didn't know how dedicated those guys are. My hat is off to the man that makes steel from rock. The only question I might have is why?

Look, I'm not trying to be belligerent. I simply stated my disagreement with the phrase that hollow ground blades are "inferior." It's my opinion, based on my experience and the experience of all the men and women who use and prefer hollow ground knives that I've had contact with. Evidently you have had different experiences. My work and opinion is clearly available for anyone to see and examine. Like I said, you know exactly who I am. I really don't know you, or who you are, or what you do, so I can't comment except on your posts.

[Ron Claiborne]

i find this very interesting in the fact that we tend to preach to the quair, i have and still like both for diffrent knives can and do work better with diffrent grinds , to say one is better than the other is streaching it a little you first need to know what that knife will be used for and each grind has its place in the overall pictur i think.
im a forger and ii like to forge large and small blades for a lot of reasons , to forge so that i can flat grind was never a thought that i would even think about to say forged blade should or is flat ground becouse its forged is reaching and a good thread maker its like saying do you still beat your wife ,if you did or not its worded to get a responce . its like puting words in some ones mouth i think if you look most of us do thing that we feel builds a better blade and we stand by that untill proved diffrent ,
i know i tend to watch the people that i respect and let them teach me .but just becouse they say it dont make me through out all and go what i have learned over a long time of proving it to my self i will grind both if for no other reason that i like both i will say hollow grindis easer than flat \\\\\\\\\\\\ and i feel a pro would learn to do both
opps no pun intended why do most forgers flat grind becouse they like to
bowie do what you like and like what you do

[Chris Daigle]

Very interesting thread. And I've wondered about Coop's original question as well.

I can only speak from my own experience, but I'd have to say it's more aesthetics than anything else for me. I forge the bevels in, so I'm already thinking in terms of "flat". Never have I looked at one of my forged blades and wondered about hollow grinding. I love the dramatic effect a beautiful hollow grind gives, but I've almost always associated it with stainless steels (damascus being the exception).

So, I guess it's been a perception thing on my part...

Chris
(who will learn to hollow grind....some day!)

[J.Arthur Loose]

And you go on to use the phrase "those who create the steels for their blades." I'm willing to bet that few, very few "create" their steels. Do they actually take raw iron ore and make steel "from scratch?" Gee, I guess I didn't know how dedicated those guys are. My hat is off to the man that makes steel from rock. The only question I might have is why?

Because it's cool.

Anyway, let's all keep it civil.

There is no one "best," blade. Everything is a compromise somewhere for something...

[Jay Fisher]

Very cool, J. Arthur. Hat's off!

Here's a nice hollow ground Damascus Steel (Sparse twist) knife.

Merry Chrismas and Happy New Year to all!

[SharpByCoop]

Well.

I asked this question in earnest and didn't quite expect the wonderful turnout of ideas and commentaries. I need to spend more time going back and re-reading them all again so it can sink in.

I can't stop a train...

Steel from ore? Here's one thread that dealt with it. Tai Goo knows his stuff...

Coop

[Mark Williams]

Anybody else hear the elephant song somewhere in the background.....getting stronger

Nice thread Coop.

[TexasJack]

LOL! - "Careful" is never a threat! Anyway, it's not my way to threaten. I say what I believe and I stand by it. Rarely is anything I have to say veiled.

I meant for you to be careful not to attach more meaning to my post than what I said. You'll get your blood pressure all up for nothing.

Portray you in a bad light? Never!

Disagree with you? Maybe.

I thought you had a lot of good things to say in your original post - and I think I mentioned that. You added a lot of perspective to the discussion. That's why I suggested you stop apologizing.

And, yes, I think some of the things you said could be taken as disparaging against those who make their own metals or forge instead of stock removal. You have the numbers to prove that you make great blades. That's not in dispute. I look around this forum and see quite a few others who also make great blades - some radically different from yours. I have great respect for anyone who can create something of such quality and art. Looking around this forum makes me very inclusive, not exclusive.

It was never my intention to make you angry. I hope you will look back through the thread and realize that.

Beyond that, there's nothing more for me to say.

[TexasJack]

OK, one more thing, but sorta unrelated - Looking at the photo you posted of the hollow ground Damascus knife, I really like the way you did the thong slot. The knife has nice composition overall.

[Jay Fisher]

Surely, others who read this post have not concluded that I "disparaged" anyone. If they do, they are simply insecure and I really doubt that! No matter how many times you suggest that, it simply is not so, and I will now quit "apologizing"

Good luck with all your work. BTW, let's see some of it.

Merry Chrismas and God bless all our soldiers and those who defend our freedom to speak! And thanks for the forum, guys!

"Some regard private enterprise as if it were a predatory tiger to be shot. Others look upon it as a cow that they can milk. Only a handful see it for what it really is--the strong horse that pulls the whole cart." -- Winston Churchill