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  #31  
Old 02-21-2004, 05:14 PM
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tmickley tmickley is offline
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S30V takes a scratch and holds it forever. It's also foggy when you try to mirror it. If and when I use more of it, I'm going to charge for it.

I've just finished a batch of RWL-34 and I believe I'm going to switch to that after switching from ATS-34 to 154CM last year. It takes the nicest, deepest mirror I've ever seen. There are no inclusions. The only problem is that there is only one place to get it in the USA so it's about double the cost of ATS-34. On the other hand, the steel is usually the cheapest part of the knife so a blank of steel that might cost $8 will now cost $16 with RWL-34. I think it's worth it.

I'd have a hard time telling the difference working or polishing BG-42 from 154CM. Very close working characteristics -- to me. Again, it's that double the price thing from ATS-34.

I was reading in USA Today that steel prices are up 66% in the last year and it's expected to go higher. Has anyone seen any increases in prices from the supply houses yet?
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  #32  
Old 02-21-2004, 07:00 PM
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Dusty Moulton Dusty Moulton is offline
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Hey Guys:
Ray, I appreciate the info about the surface grinders. I don't exactly know why (maybe I am too old & backwards) but I am one of those guys who would rather do things more by hand than by machine. I have tried to get my customers to understand the difference between the way I make knives & the way many others, with all their equipment make knives? Please all of you with lots of wonderful equipment I am not putting you down in the least...... I think its great, just not the way I do things, which does not mean I am doing it right just my own stubborn way.
Steve, I noticed where it says you live in Silicon Valley, but you are working in your lambing barn. I didn?t realize they had Sheep & Cattle in Silicon Valley. I thought it was just Rich Computer Geeks? Not really, they have got to eat something besides Quiche!
And now on to Tracy. It is a challange to try to keep all the wonderful folks seperated when responding so I don?t say the wrong thing to the wrong person. Any way, I am pretty much getting the impression that I should stay away from S30V for the application I am personally wanting to use it in. In my past I have never asked folks for much help. I just muddled through it entirely on my own but recently I got started on this forum stuff & thought it might be a good place to get advice from others instead of just making descisions on my own with out any other input
For all your help and compliments, I appreciate it, y?all.
Well, I may be hard at work in the basement, 7days a week now???.BUT just wait a few more weeks until Spring & the water warms up! Then I am going to get the Bass boat out and start doing some fishing before I go crazy in this shop!
Best Regards,
Dusty


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  #33  
Old 02-22-2004, 12:55 AM
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Dusty,

You seem like a nice likeable guy all right. Been admiring your knives for a long time.

Quote:
Steve, I noticed where it says you live in Silicon Valley, but you are working in your lambing barn. I didn?t realize they had Sheep & Cattle in Silicon Valley. I thought it was just Rich Computer Geeks? Not really, they have got to eat something besides Quiche!
Actually I live about an hour outside of offical geekdom. I'm a misfit. I'm a 'rich computer geek' to pay the bills. But we keep a few sheep for 4H projects and build knives to keep sanity.

Quote:
Then I am going to get the Bass boat out and start doing some fishing
Look who's calling who rich! I deam of gettin' a bass boat and having a day for fishing.

Steve


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  #34  
Old 02-22-2004, 09:43 AM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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Dusty,

I completely understand your feelings about the machines and agree that at first glance it does not appear that a surface grinder would fit in with your style.

But, it's all in how you think about it. You wouldn't be using the surface grinder as part of your knife making, you would be using it to prepare the steel prior to beginning your knife. If you were able to buy the desired steel in a precision ground form (as you said you like to do) then you are simply buying steel that someone else has already surface ground. This way, you are doing the surface grinding yourself which makes it more 'yours' in my opinion.

Just a thought.....


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  #35  
Old 02-24-2004, 04:24 PM
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Dusty Moulton Dusty Moulton is offline
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Hello Ray
Please do not misunderstand what I am saying about machines. I went to your web site and saw your shop WOW! I am jealous.
I am not in the least bit against machinery used for making knives. It is just that I personally don't use much. (Can?t afford it) You said that the surface grinder is only $1000 but, to me that means $1000 that I can not spend on steel, belts, handle material, knife show tables, air fare, motel rooms, etc. Part time knife makers & even full time knife makers with other dependable income don?t look at the knife business as someone like me does. I have to make due with what I have & be a prudent manager of the income I derive from knives if I want to continue to make knives as a full time living in the future. Over spending on equipment could easily spell my downfall if sales & orders have a slow down. So instead of buying a surface grinder & spending a bunch of money. (To me $1000 is a great deal) and using up more of the time I am already in very short supply of, in order to do the surface grinding in shop, which would actually cost me more than just ordering it all ready that way. I am money ahead just to buy it already ground so that the time I would have spent surface grinding my steel will instead be spent else where in a more productive manner. After all, I don?t have much to do other than building the knives, designing & carrying through of the engraving designs on my knives, plus the knives that are sent in by others for me to engrave. Oh yeah then there is the sheath building for each knife, then photographing them, tweaking them in a photo program, Oh yea, almost forgot, up load them to my web page & make the appropriate changes with it. That takes a HECK of a lot of hours for one single individual. Which I am sure most all knife makers understand but probably not many of the folks admiring our knives on a table at a knife show or on the Internet. Nor should they have to worry about it. They just need to enjoy the fruits of our labors.
Which is what it is all about.
Have a very good day.
Dusty


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  #36  
Old 02-24-2004, 06:20 PM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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I really do understand your position, Dusty. I am a full time maker with no other source of income and a name *somewhat* less well known than Bob Loveless'.

It clearly makes sense for you to buy your materials precision ground. But, as you pointed out, some materials like BG-42 just aren't available precision ground in your preferred sizes. Basically, as things stand now that means you simply can't use those materials or that it is labor intensive for you to use them. I see the surface grinder as a way for you to get access to those materials.

On the other hand, I can't spend $1000 on anything either, especially if I can't eat it ...........


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  #37  
Old 02-25-2004, 02:00 PM
Darren Ellis Darren Ellis is offline
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Hey guys, just FYI, when I get the money for one of those HF $1000 surface grinders the first thing I'm going to do (well, after putting the wheel conversion on it and truing up the mag chuck) is to convert the x and y axis to CNC. No point in standing there and having to manually surface grind those bars!

Dusty,

Thanks for keeping us apprised of the situation with Admiral Steel and following through...it'll be interesting to see if they make amends.



-Darren


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  #38  
Old 02-26-2004, 11:03 AM
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Hello Darren
When you get the money for the surface grinder & get it set up please let me know. I would very much like to see how one works with the Conversion. I am assuming you are talking converting it to use belts? I may actually change my mind and go that route in the future. Also I would be gald to show you around my shop since you are not far from me. Were you at the recent hammer-in at Bowies house?
Dusty


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  #39  
Old 02-26-2004, 11:55 AM
Darren Ellis Darren Ellis is offline
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Hi Dusty,

Yep, I was there, you know who I am when you see me...though, I'm not sure you know me by name when you see me. Ron Claiborne and James Gibson were the two primary guys who taught me to make knives, so I'm around those guys quite often.

It'll be later in the year before I can afford the surface grinder. I plan to do two conversions. One is the conversion to belts as you mentioned. The other is to automate the table axes to be run with motors (stepper motors). That way you can set up the machine, then run a little program on the computer (which controls the motors) to automatically run the grinding while you are free'd up for other tasks around the shop. I figure surface grinding isn't part of the craftsmanship involved in making knives so why not set up a computer to automate that task.

I'd love to come by your shop sometime, and I know James has mentioned that you've invited him to drop by too...maybe he and I can combine a trip sometime so as to not take up too much of your time?



-Darren


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  #40  
Old 02-26-2004, 12:06 PM
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Darren
I look forward to your visit sometime
Dusty


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  #41  
Old 03-01-2004, 07:06 PM
Jerry Hossom Jerry Hossom is offline
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Sorry to have joined this thread so late, but there are a couple things I've learned over the past few years that might help. To begin with, the ATS-34 sold by Admiral is plate steel they shear to size. It will always be grainy, and will be a bear to get the graininess out if you want to polish it. That they say they haven't heard that complaint before is more than a little outrageous. I know for a fact they've heard it often. You have to work out your own procedure for it, but I know Geno Denning has and makes beautiful, mirror polished blades with it. 154CM is also plate, but it's cross rolled so it's a bit better than the plate ATS-34. Most knifemaking supply houses sell hot rolled bar ATS-34 and it's a whole lot different than the plate rolled material. It's clean (fairly) and finishes nicely. In other words all ATS-34 is not created equal, but all ATS-34 is made by Hitachi. 154CM is of course Crucible.

At the SHOT show some of us were speaking with the Crucible people and they are going to be making a powder version of 154CM that will be a lot like the RWL-34 from Udeholm, but at a MUCH lower price. There should be a lot of pluses in this steel, the most important of which will be a very fine grain structure in a very good stainless steel. It won't be as tough or wear resistant as S30V by any means but it will be a WHOLE lot easier to finish. And like RWL-34 it should take an amazing mirror finish.

Hopefully, some of this steel will be available by the Blade Show in June.


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  #42  
Old 03-01-2004, 10:30 PM
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Jerry, if you hear of that powdered 154CM coming out anytime, please say something. I have just finished up a few using RWL-34 and I was amazed how it mirrors up. Man is that stuff clean and nice.
Don Cowles posted a picture of one he did using RWL-34 a few years back and mentioned liquid mercury, he was right. I wish I'd tried it earlier. I just couldn't get past paying for it by the inch for some reason. I did the math and I'm OK with it now but it would be nice to see Crucible come out with some.
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  #43  
Old 03-01-2004, 10:50 PM
Darren Ellis Darren Ellis is offline
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Tracy,

Where are you guys picking up your RWL-34?

-Darren


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  #44  
Old 03-02-2004, 04:37 PM
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Hi there,
We have had similar striations in bar stock from Admiral as well. The awful thing is I actually kind of like the way it looks, not withstanding the potential flaw in structure. I'm glad to hear you're getting treated fairly, I'll be sure to inquire on my own behalf if it happens again.


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  #45  
Old 03-02-2004, 05:15 PM
Jerry Hossom Jerry Hossom is offline
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I think you'll find that "bar stock" is actually sheared plate. If the corners on one side are a little rounded, it's plate. That's another thing, it costs you about 1/8" in width to deal with that. Crucible saws their 154CM plate for just that reason.


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