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Heat Treating and Metallurgy Discussion of heat treatment and metallurgy in knife making.

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Old 02-19-2012, 08:09 PM
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What kind of quenchent do I use?

Alright guys, help me out. TEACH ME! I am all ears, (or I guess eyes in this case). What is the best quenchent for the steals generally used in knife making? Where do I get it? Is there a second best? How do I use it? I was told that my leaf springs (I got from a semi truck-repair garage) were 1095. What do I have? I also have some 0-1, how do I treat, and temper it? What about using automotive coil springs? Is there any scrap steal that I should be on the look for? I am not gona buy nothing , or sell any thing until I know that "I know" what I'm doing! So until that time I'm gona grind pound, cut, and polish scrap and feebies! Help me become a good, and knowledgeable knife maker.
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Old 02-19-2012, 09:32 PM
Doug Lester Doug Lester is online now
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Ok, are the springs from the repair shop cut-offs from springs that they fabricated or are they springs removed from trucks? If it is the latter the claim that they are 1095 may be only a guess on their part. Even it it is 1095, not all 1095 is the same. More than one alloy is used to make automotive coil springs. The advantage is that being springs they are bound to have enough carbon in them to make a blade from. Also each spring or spring assembly will give you enough steel for several blades so once you figure out the heat treatment for a segment of the steel it will be the same for the rest.

With unknown steels there is no way around experimenting to find the correct heat treatment. The only way around this is to send a sample to a lab for analysis. You will have to search this board or google a search for labs to do this. Maybe someone who has gotten this done will chime in. It's not as expensive an option as having a microscopic analysis done and might be feasable for a large lot of salvaged steel.

For the O1 use oil. Vegatable oil will be fine. Heat the steel to non-magnetic and then get it a little brigher (hotter). Soak for 5-10 minutes making sure that the steel does not get much brighter or duller than that color. Quench in oil and immediately temper. I would try 400 degrees for three 2 hour cycles and test for hardness. Adjust tempering temperature in 25 degree incriments up or down as needed. From people who have used O1, it is a steel that would beniffit from a controled heat source to astinize, such as a regulated kiln or a molten salt pot, but it can be done with a forge and still get an exceptable blade.

You are saying that you are determined to use salvaged steel to make knives until you are satified with your skills enough to buy a known steel and I can respect your decision. Just be aware that you are making things harder on yourself than it need be.


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Old 02-19-2012, 10:38 PM
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Alright, the springs are factory, taken off trucks. I have read that you can trust the springs off a semi to be 1095, guess not. I also have two fork lift forks, some virgin, (in the wrapper) 0-1, and 8 plastic tubs (4 pieces each) of new and used planer blades (1"x20"x1/8") that says M-2 high speed tool steel on the wrapping, I have not used the M-2 yet (thought about using for folders). I have a good gas forge , that I made off plans on the INTERNET that works quite well. Welder, cutting torch, drill press, mini lathe (steel), Grizzly 2x72 belt grinder, and some more stuff. I am a school trained welder, and a half #!& machinist. Retired (25 yrs) Fed Pen maintenance supervisor, and Ill be 60 next month. I have been making and giving my knifes away (about 6 yrs now) trying to learn technique, under the wrong info (I guess) and making lots of mistakes (I'm sure). I am just now having enough time to really get into it, and I want to do it right, cause I would like to start to sell a few to feed my habit. I have had a lot of offers but I'm an honest person, and I just tell people I'm hot ready to sell yet. But I'm reading a lot of confusing stuff. And not every body explains things completely, or well. So please bare with this old grumpy guy, I'm trying to play nice. And Doug, thanks, a bunch!

Last edited by Rog; 02-19-2012 at 11:17 PM. Reason: moreinfo
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Old 02-20-2012, 10:37 AM
Doug Lester Doug Lester is online now
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The info that I have available for M2 is that it's a bit of a problem to forge. It tends to work slowly under the hammer do to it's alloy content. Work it hot, bright orange to yellow, and don't strike it if it's not showing color or it might crack. I was rather surprised to see that it is oil hardening. It's also a steel that would probably bennifit from having a controled heat source to heat treat. Due to it high alloy content, including high levels of tungsten and vanadium, I would probably take it a little hotter for austinization than some of the simpler steels and soak a good 10 minutes and rely on the drag provided by those elements to retard grain growth. I doubt that I would choose this steel for something that was going to endure high impact but it would be good for something that is intended to be a slicer.

As far as the metallurgy goes, even with text books, explanations tend to be a little incomplete. Things like austinizing temperatures or tempering temperatures tend to get left out. You may also run into statements that X happens under A conditions and the author fails to mention that Y and Z are happening too, not to mention that the temperature of condition A has a strong influence. Kevin Cashin is a good man to correspond with and Howard Clark is a very good man to pay attention to when he discusses metallurgy.

Doug


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Old 02-20-2012, 11:45 AM
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Thanks much Doug, I was thinking I could use this M-2 for folders, and just do stock removal, because it's I'x 1/8"x20" As far as HT, I'm gona dust off this oven I have never used, and start experimenting, and testing. Any suggestions on an exact temp for the soak, temper cycle? P.S. Dumping the goop.

Last edited by Rog; 02-20-2012 at 11:52 AM. Reason: more info
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Old 02-20-2012, 01:32 PM
Doug Lester Doug Lester is online now
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Jim Hrisoulas in his book The Complete Bladesmith recommends 1700-1750 degrees for austinization for hardening. The higher temperature is undoubtedly because of the high concentration of tungsten and vanadium which need a higher temperature to disolve and release carbon into solution. I've personally never worked with it. What you might want to do is to give one piece a 5 minute soak at that temperature and do another soak with a 10 minute soak. Then quench the steel in oil and break them. Check the broken surface for grain. It should look like the surface for about 800-1000 grit sand paper. The finer the better. If both give a fine texture to the grain, I would go with the longer soak time.

From the book it looks like you are going to find the hardness that you want somewhere between 400-450 degrees. Again, you will have to experiment. M2 will have great wear resistance from all the hard carbides that it will form but it will also be a little on the brittle side of things, though not as bad as stainless steels.

Doug


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Old 02-20-2012, 08:53 PM
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I will do just that, and take pics too. It might be a little while. Got some personal stuff to take care of first. But I will do it, Ill probly start a new thread though.
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Old 02-21-2012, 09:52 AM
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Ed Caffrey Ed Caffrey is offline
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Situations like this, where your not 100% certain of the alloy(s) you have, is all work and toil....unless you're 100% certain of the alloy(s), it's going to require that you experiment, and sacrifice a few blades to figure out just how you want to handle/treat the material. Even IF you trust an individual, do not take their word for the type of steel you have....been there, done that, and all it ends up in is a lot of grief.


This is the reason that most of us who have been "around the block" try to deter folks from using "scrap" steel (anything anyone gives you, or you don't have a spec sheet on)....there's no sure what to know what you have, and you wind up putting a lot of time/effort into something that turns out to something that what you assume.....and it ends up in the trash.


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Old 02-21-2012, 12:56 PM
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Thanks ED, sound info! My woodworker friend gave me several sets of used planer blades still in the plastic container. It says, M-2 high speed tool steal on the labels on all the containers. There 20' long, 1' wide, and 1/8" thick. I have so much that I hate throwing it all away. I have got me some canola, but I'm still gona practice on this supposedly "1095" until I'm completely happy with my geometry and quenching technique. Don't think it will be too much longer. I would like to know what steel you recommend starting with and what suppler. I do have a HT oven that go's to 2000?. Have not used it yet, been using my forge and edge quenching every thing. Thought thats what I had to do. Some how I was having doubts about my self, and have came back to the forum for help. AND THANK GOD I DID.

Last edited by Rog; 02-21-2012 at 03:56 PM. Reason: not done
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Old 02-22-2012, 03:24 PM
Kevin R. Cashen Kevin R. Cashen is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Caffrey View Post
Situations like this, where your not 100% certain of the alloy(s) you have, is all work and toil....unless you're 100% certain of the alloy(s), it's going to require that you experiment, and sacrifice a few blades to figure out just how you want to handle/treat the material. Even IF you trust an individual, do not take their word for the type of steel you have....been there, done that, and all it ends up in is a lot of grief.


This is the reason that most of us who have been "around the block" try to deter folks from using "scrap" steel (anything anyone gives you, or you don't have a spec sheet on)....there's no sure what to know what you have, and you wind up putting a lot of time/effort into something that turns out to something that what you assume.....and it ends up in the trash.
This is one of the topics that is a bit of a hot button in the business and I have seen some feathers really ruffled over it. But if you take time to look at who typically takes the different positions on the topic you can get an idea of where folks are coming from. The guys who make knives for fun or are just getting started are much more willing to take on the challenge of working with an unknown material. I am not surprised at all to find myself in complete agreement with Ed on this since seldom will you see the well established professionals, who cannot afford the time wasted nor the chance of an unpredictable product going to the public, in favor of using scrap material. I have seen hobbyists or new makers get very contentious with professional smiths, well known for the quality of their work, when they advised the business wise advantages of using known, fresh steel.

I think a lot of past unfortunate debate could have been avoided by simply seeing the different perspectives of enjoying making things for other things vs. efficiency in earning a living. From that perspective a knife made from an old rasp is very cool and interesting unto itself, but the value vs. cost needs to be disregarded if our most precious commodity is time, for then "free" steel from old rasps, springs etc... can be some of the most expensive materials you could work with.
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Old 02-22-2012, 08:32 PM
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I understand perfectly, and I think you have cut to the core of the differing suggestions. Ill be 60 next month, and do not expect to ever be famous, or rich, because of knife making. But I am striving to make a good, usable, and safe knife. I will be buying "good steel". But not before I get the bugs worked out to my satisfaction. I have learned more this past month than I can say, and truly appreciate everyones help. I make knives because I like to. It makes me feel good, and my own pride drives me to do it well. Been like that for years, will always be. Not to be
"better" than others, but just as good, as within a brotherhood of artisans. Yea, I'm staring to "read between the lines", but I will not argue over opinion. Discussion is a good thing, arguing no. As long as you're not hurting others, well, "go cat go"! I think all of you are good honest men. God bless you all. And thanks so much!......Roger Swalls
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