It's getting out of control....and it's just sad

[Ed Fowler]

Thanks Friends:
I won't go into specifics but do believe that we all learn from discussion and that is the main reason I write. There was a time when most members of the human species and before both made and used their knives.that time is past, but much of the knowledge we seek to make our tools of man is in our history and I do not believe that the best knife has been made yet.

All we can do is pass on what be believe and hope to inspire makers of the future to carry the ball.

[cdent]

Originally Posted by WBE

I believe most of you are missing the point of Stacy's letter. It was not a personal attack on Fowler....

.....BS he has written....no facual content......you have drank from his koolaid....swallowed a bit too much of his BS.....good hype spiel.....those foolish enough to buy it.

The point of the letter would be very easy to miss since it uses words of personal insult, which no one has been able to explain how they help make the case. Again, the author is probably a good guy with good intentions, but I can't see where a case was made.

A mention was made of 'recent' articles, but how could any author rehash years of evidence and findings just to write a new article. There's mountains of metallurgical findings and other evidence on the kto forums and on Ed F.'s dvd's. No one said it has to be blindly accepted, but it is there for evaluating and criticizing.

Another comment in the letter to Blade that helped set the tone on a personal note was 'anyone who has read moderately on the subject' had the background to criticize, but making only one knife this year was unacceptable. The author laid out his credentials, including forum moderator. He had started a thread just a couple weeks earlier criticizing newbies for posting answers when he determined they weren't experienced enough.

Sadly, I think there's a good case that might be made and a chance was missed for good debate and info exchange. To this point, I haven't seen any letter supporters offer alternatives. Might be just different ways to skin a cat.

Craig

[Karl B. Andersen]

I wonder what difference it makes how many knives a guy makes a year?
Does an astronaut have to fly to the moon more than once to tell you how it's done?
I've been to Ed Fowler's. And I've taken his class and spent hours on the phone with him.
His enthusiasm alone can make a knife cut sharper and longer than the majority of makers out there.
He has NEVER come across as an authority to me but rather stated what he has observed, and stated how necessary it is for others to test their own knives before promoting them.
Ed is a friend of the knife world and needs to be treated as such.

[jim poling]

When I read Stacy's Letter I did not get any impression that it was anything but a commentary on the opinion that ED had expressed in a recent article as well as others. Perhaps my objectivity was clouded by what I saw an attack on Ed's opinion and experience after he gave advice in the Blade forum some time back. If I not mistaken Stacy was among the folks involved in that as well. After reading the most recent post and coupling that with the past incident my first thought was, "Boy Stacy must have a problem with ED". This letter also came across to me as a "Shame On You" to the publication in question for even printing his articles. I believe that if Stacy has a problem with them publishing his articles he should have the discretion to contacted them in private rather than through an open forum in what seems to me an effort to express his opinion as well as undermine Eds opinion. I do believe that Stacy has the right to his opinion just as Ed has a right to his opinion and that within our brotherhood of makers opinions are as varied as there are makers and if we all quit giving advice because some one may not agree with it then the art will most assuredly die. I know of several very experienced and knowledgeable makers that have stopped giving advice because of issues like this. I want to make it clear that this is not written because of any affiliation or anything of the sort I just want to point out that he should have handled this more discretely to avoid the hard feeling and the drama that it has obviously caused.

Jim

[Chuck Burrows]

All of that metallurgy and spectrograph paperwork, stuffed away in my office filing cabinet is not ?proof? of any kind, it is nothing more than verification that either something achieved the desired outcome, or it did not, and it gave me new directions to take, and in many cases changed my perceptions of what I should be doing, and a starting point for how to get to where I wanted to be.
Ed Caffrey

The words of a scientist
Science is facts; just as houses are made of stones, so is science made of facts; but a pile of stones is not a house and a collection of facts is not necessarily science. - Henri Poincare

who was Poincare - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henri_Poincar%C3%A9

[T.WOLFE]

C'mon Chuck, You ain't been visiting Tai have you?...ps, your period sheath work is the best I ever saw...

[xspook2158]

Before I post my comment I would like to tell Boatbuilder Sry, But my question remains the same, did the person that wrote the article ever make an attempt to talk to Mr Fowler in private before going public with such a post?

By the way Craig Thank You!! You can jump in any time, its not the first time I have ever been corrected. LOL

The bottom line is we are here to learn, we do not have to agree all the time if we did it would be boring.

But I think we do need to respect opinions of others, until proven otherwise.

Some of my ideas on tying a fly is applauded by some, and scorned by others, but thats ok. At least I hope I am making people think and discuss the issues.

My point being its OK to have differences, just try and discuss them in private and work out the issues before going public with them.

Anything else shows a lack of respect.

Mr. Caffery, Thank you for posting the question. It makes a person think.

Jeff

[Ed Fowler]

Chuck: I have read that quote about houses and stones 4 times this year, first the thought came to me when I was watching a friend trying to build a house out of field stone, then in a cultural anthropology book written in the 50's, then one about Freud. Now Here it is again, attributed to Poincare. I wonder who said it first? It really does not matter, it speaks for itself.
Thanks for posting a source.

[Doug Lester]

Stone walls not a prison make nor iron bars a cage-but they sure do help.-Buggs Bunny

Doug

[Richard Glenn]

Meep Meep - road runner..

I'm a newb here and I know little of any of you or of metallurgy. However from simply reading I would disregard the letter for the simple more attacking phrases alone. They have no place in a debate and if they can't be held back then you're to biased to debate the subject.

[Doug Lester]

I've re-read the letter a couple of times and I agree that it was a little long on vitriol and challanged Ed Fowler's worthiness to be published in Knife magazine. I too question a some of his claims as to process and metallurgy but there are better and more mature ways of expressing one's differences. Claiming that someone is mearly on a ego trip and has no idea what he's talking about is too personal and adds nothing to the discussion. Mr. Apelt accused Ed Fowler of supporting his claims with unsubstanciated references to named or unnamed metallurgists while he himself failed to site exact example of error's in Mr Fowlers process of claims. Behavior like that is seldom encountered on these boards and I am with all others who use these boards and would like to keep it that way.

Doug

[C Craft]

I knew the post you were talking about before it ever got posted to this forum. I will say this before getting into knife making I had about 35 years experience in the construction field. There are things I know will work, they may or may not be able to be explained by myself, however I do know they will work. I have only been into knife making since 2007.

When you put your knowledge out there with a claim then you have to be able to back it up. Having said that I think posts like the one you are speaking of do nothing for anyone, except creating a atmosphere for a whizzing contest!

Sometimes the best you can do in these situations is like Momma always taught you, "if you can't say something nice about someone then it's best to not say anything at all.

I have a signature at the bottom of each post that was related to me by my father years ago. We lived in a small town and I mean a small town. There were 480 people when I was growing up. My Dad was a carpenter and after missing out on several jobs that other carpenters (of which their was only two more) I asked him one day. I had just heard an add on the local radio station by one of the other carpenters in town. I turned to my Dad and asked him, "why don't you advertise"?

His response has stuck in my head all these years. "I don't need to advertise, if I do a good job my name gets around fast enough and if I do a bad job my name will beat me from job to job". I was barely 14 when I heard those words from my Dad but I never forgotten them or the implication behind them. In fact I have always tried to live my life by them!

There are a lot of things that I am still learning about knife making but there are a couple of things I have already learned in the short time I have been doing this. There are scientific methods in knife making that I may never understand, and I have discovered things on my own that I hadn't saw too much in print about. Also I have already learned not to discount something that I can't prove myself is wrong.

Oh and one other thing whizzing contests usually mean you and the other fellar are going to end up wet!

[Robert Dark]

I have seen many people with a "sharp-tongue" cut their own throat in the long run.

I believe that before we act or speak ill of others, we should look into the mirror and and ask the person that is looking back at us if he thinks its the right thing to do. Most of the time, if we are honest, the answer will be "No".

Let your conscience be your guide before speaking and doing.

If you don't agree with what I am saying or doing, then show me a better way. Don't just jump up and down and say that I'm wrong............ Show me.

I'm upset with the way things have been going on Blade Forums, and I'm totally disappointed with Blade Magazine in general, but before I jump on any bandwagon, I will just take a look in the mirror and ask the dude looking back what to do.

Robert

[podmajersky]

Hmm.. interesting discussion. I generally just lurk on most boards and listen to the conversations but thought I would add a new perspective here.

First off Let me state that I do not personally know either Mr. Fowler or Mr. Aplet nor do I currently read the other forum mentioned in this thread.

When I read that letter, what I see is a question to the Editor about the level of editorial oversight and direction at the magazine. I see a letter from a long time subscriber to a publication questioning if the publication is adequately fulfilling the needs of it's readers. Yes the author has some specific issues with the tone and content of recent articles by a specific author as published in said magazine.

Yes the letter indicates Mr. Aplet disagrees with the veracity of some of the claims in Mr Fowler?s articles. It also seems to indicate Mr Aplet has a preference for the inclusion of full and complete datasets, thereby allowing peer review.

Having read some of Mr Fowlers work and having attended a presentation he gave at blade show west it seems to me that Mr Fowler prefers a more anecdotal/"personal narrative" style of writing, with an emphasis on being entertaining and enjoyable to read.

To me the question seems to be where on the spectrum, between "entertainment" and "rigorous peer reviewed journal", Blade magazine should aim for with its content.


Was the letter written to be veiled personal attack against Mr Fowler? Since I am not omniscient I cannot say, but that is not how it comes across to me.


Was posting such a letter on an open forum the wisest move; who knows. Could a better set of words been chosen to get the point across; most likely. Reading the letter suggests it was written with passion, a passion for making knives to the best of one?s ability, focused through the perspective of the scientific method.

Now I know I have written things before very quickly and passionately and used words and phrases that clouded my message, much to my regret. I think most people probably have.

The way I see it the letter can either be read as somebody passionately trying to improve what we do from the perspective they know best or it can be seen as a veiled underhanded attack... I think knife making will be better off if more people choose to see it as the first rather than the latter.

[xspook2158]

Whether an opinion is posted with hast and passion or intent to insult and cause discontent can only be perceived in the eyes and the mind of the reader.

I know before I publish a letter or view, that would be most assuredly viewed as controversial, that I may receive some flak. I steady myself and I'm prepared to accept others views of what I have written.

But, if a living person is involved I try and talk to them first. I try and see their view.
I still form my own opinion and No it may not change my letter or opinion, but at least I asked.

All I am asking is if it could have been handled differently ?

Jeff