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  #1  
Old 08-29-2011, 09:48 PM
Ken W. Ken W. is offline
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Blind Pins?

I have a knife building project I'm lining up and need advice from those more experienced than myself(which should include a very high percentage of all of you). I'll be building on a Devin Thomas SS damascus tapered full tang blade and plan to install some of Mike Sakmar's 3 color mokume as fore and aft dovetailed bolsters with snakewood scales. I'd really like to pull this off by doing the mountings with blind pins so as to leave the mokume and snakewood exterior surfaces intact.

What would you gentlemen suggest as steps to pull this off?

Ken
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Old 08-30-2011, 08:22 AM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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First of all, welcome to the forums Ken!

Since you're new here, we don't know anything about your knife making history. Is this your first knife? Probably not, I'm guessing - at least I hope not considering the expensive materials you're using. Anyway, there really aren't too many different ways to do blind pins with those materials. Essentially, it's a matter of drilling shallow holes in the materials from the back side, then using a Dremel to create a mushroom shape in the hole, followed by making pins of the correct length and finishing up with a top quality epoxy. The glue gets into the mushroom head and into the groove you will cut on the ends of the pins which holds the whole thing together. This is a pretty strong arrangement but it might not survive heavy use. Of course, knives made with the materials you're using rarely see heavy use. Let us see how it all comes out ....


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Old 08-30-2011, 08:31 PM
Ken W. Ken W. is offline
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Ray; First off, thanks for your response and sharing of knowledge. Here's some background about myself and my knife building "experience".

I'm a native Floridian, turning 60 next January. Lifelong interest in the outdoors, hunting & fishing thanks to my Dad's influence. RN since 1975 working ICU and ER the first 25 of those years. Been a flyfisherman since my teens and about 10 years ago got into vintage and modern splitcane bamboo flyrods(as a user, not a maker). Have a bunch of friends around the country and overseas who are bamboo rodmakers. Pretty much the same type of individualistic craftsmen as most knifemakers seem to be. A year or so ago a gentleman posted photos of a little trout knife he had built by cutting down a kitchen cutlery blade. I thought "Cool!" and proceeded to buy some finished blades & rivets from Texas Knife, cut them down from the spine and mounted grips, made sheaths and gave 'em to friends. Things have rolled along from there. Nothing too fancy and certainly no sophisticated techniques or tools involved, just Dremels, a cheap belt sander, files and glues.

The upcoming project I'm seeking guidance on will be the most expensive in the way of materials and quality of the blade itself. Worst possible outcome is I waste my time, trash some good materials but still have a quality blade and some School of Hard Knocks education. Best and hoped for eventuality is I take my time and end up with a unique and handsome tool I can take pride in. As for hard knocks and holding up......well, we'll see. I don't plan on dressing hawgs with it but would use it on light game & fish and if I trade it to a friend I'd be hurt if they weren't comfortable using it as the tool it was intended to be.

After poking through the site for a couple of days I couldn't find anything about blind pinning. I did find a treasure trove of other useful information that the fine members of your community have shared but a lot of it is way beyond the level of work I'll ever attempt.

Hopefully, over the next week or so I'll find time to post a few photos of the knives I have assembled.

Thanks again;

Ken

Last edited by Ken W.; 08-30-2011 at 08:34 PM.
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Old 08-30-2011, 09:59 PM
Doug Lester Doug Lester is offline
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You didn't say what machinery you have to drill with but a drill press would be a big plus. I would mark off where the bolsters will be on the tang of the blade for reference and mark where the pins would be and drill out the holes. To get the holes the right size for the pins, measure the pins with a micrometer and choose a bit just a couple of thousandths of an inch larger. You may have to refer to a chart of fractional, metric, numbered, and lettered drill bits to find the right one(s) You will drill the same size holes in the bolsters. You can use the same size holes and pins for the other parts or not as you feel appropriate but work off the size of the pins that you will use with these pieces.

Clamp the bolster material securely in place over the holes in the tang, making double sure that everything lines up, and use the holes in the tang as a template to drill the holes in the bolster blocks. You might even glue the bolster block down with epoxy. A sharp rap with a mallet will break the glue free though you will have to clean the dried glue off the tang and block. Repeat the process with the block on the other side. Make sure the pins are the correct length by dry fitting everything. You should roughen the pin material with sandpaper or a file to give a better bond with the glue.

If you need to shape the leading edge of the bolsters, do so before affixing them to the tang as it will be more difficult after assembly. You can drop temporary pins into the holes to allign the bolster blocks without any glue and clamp them together to help keep any bevels on the leading edge of the bolster blocks straight.

After you are sure that everything is going where you want it, assemble the bolsters to the tang with glue as Ray described. Mark out the tang for the wood scales and assemble the same way as the bolsters were. However, you will not have to round the leading edges of the scales as you did with the bolsters. You will only have to cut a reciprocating angle the angle on the back of the bolster blocks and the end blocks. This is better to be done in advance and at the same time for all pieces so that you won't have to find the angle again on the work rest. Make sure everthing with the scales fits and glue up. However, I would not temporarily glue the wood scales in place or some of the interior surface may tear away when you knock the first scale loose to work on the other side.

Assemble the end caps in the same manner, no reason to preshape the ends as they are easily accessable for shaping after they're glue on, then do your final shaping and sanding. You will probably want to mask the metal parts when you apply a finish to the scales, though boiled linseed oil wipes off well and it will seal the metal parts anyway. Remember to tape over the blade while you're doing all this to protect the finish on the blade and your fingers from cuts.

I will admit that I've never done a hidden pin handle because, as Ray elluded, it's not the strongest but the way I outlined is the way I would go about it. Others may comment.

Doug


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Old 08-31-2011, 07:37 AM
Ken W. Ken W. is offline
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Thanks, Doug! Excellent advice and confirms a lot of what i had been thinking. I've been giving consideration to silver soldering the prepared pins in place on the tang once the dry fit is perfect. Also thinking of mounting the scales first, after beveling, then following with the fore & aft bolsters as their bevels will be overlying the scales and final alignment and lock down may be easier to achieve and more secure. Also looks like I'll use a highgrade white marine epoxy and would like to tint it red for the scale gluing and a different color to blend the bolster lines to the tang. One of the tutorials here on bolsters suggests creating a shallow rimmed "basin" on the inner faces of the bolsters as glue pocket. That seems a good idea as well.

Been researching snakewood(and, Yes, it ain't cheap) and found several resources that say the stuff is difficult to work with. Recommendation I keep coming across is to seal it with thin CYA after each step in shaping to control checking splits. Anybody have some thoughts on this?

Ken
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Old 08-31-2011, 07:55 AM
Doug Lester Doug Lester is offline
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Attaching the scales first will work. The main thing is to attach the various elements one at at time and to dry fit before final assembly.

I don't know if snakewood can be stabilized but you might want to check with some professional stabilizers to see if it can be done. If it can be, it would be a great idea to have it done. It will do more to reduce checking than the CA glue because the plastic will go all the way through the wood. From what I've read from others who have used the wood, snakewood will eventually check. It may look great but because of that it is a wood that I would not use. Even professional stabilization will not prevent eventual checking.

Doug


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Old 08-31-2011, 08:53 AM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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I haven't found snakewood to be difficult to work with but it is a bit brittle and splintery. For that reason, I sent my snakewood blocks (not scales) to K&G for stabilization. The natural oils in the wood make it a poor candidate for stabilizing but I did it anyway and the wood seemed to benefit from it. I never heard anything back from either of the two knive's owners to suggest the wood ever cracked but it may have. I agree the CA will not be a good long term solution ...


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Old 08-31-2011, 05:00 PM
Ken W. Ken W. is offline
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Once again, gentlement, Thanks......

The CYA treatment of the snakewood is a temporary step to minimize splits by stopping moisture loss/gain during the shaping process. Many of my rodmaking buddies do stabilization of their wood reel seat inserts and I'll be picking their brains and hitting them up for help before mounting once the scales are finished and fitted. If I end up not liking the snakewood my fallback is a sweet piece of vintage walrus tusk(not the mineralized stuff) that I lucked into several years ago and have been saving ever since.

Just received the 2 pieces of 1/8" Sakmar tricolor ladder pattern in the mail today. What sweet stuff it is! Expecting the snakewood block tomorrow. 1/8th inch doesn't allow much depth for blind pinning but Heck, if it doesn't want to hold everything is already lined up for thrubore drilling and standard pins and she'll still look nice, eh?

Sure is fun to play with design & options.

Thanks again;

Ken
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Old 09-03-2011, 05:23 PM
Ken W. Ken W. is offline
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So, back in my own little thread.......

I ordered some .25 x 1.5" brass plate to try as a "basement" for the Mokume bolsters. Got a terminology question: If I mount a bolster on the butt end of the tang is it still a "bolster" or does it become a pommel?

The snakewood arrived yesterday and is very pretty stuff. Hopefully I won't screw it up. I'm going to follow a program I used for the last 2 knives I assembled. First, make a template of the blade/tang out of soft steel, drill tang holes to match the original then use it as a practice base for the add-on components. That allows me to bring the bolsters, scales & pins to approximate shape without harming the blade. Planning to cut the Mokume and brass to rough oversized form then clamp & glue together followed by drilling the blind pin sockets. From there it's time to hot glue the metal to the tang template using wooden or copper pins for alignment followed by a lot of file work and sanding. Once I'm close to the target a little heat to the pieces lets me disassemble. Next comes a repeat of the above process making the snakewood scales then refitting all the components together, still a little bit oversized on all exterior faces.

Final assembly will probably begin by gluing/blind pinning the scales then adding the bolsters as their bevel lays over the scales' bevel. Final sanding down to shape by hand will occur once everything is locked in.

Since the blade's spine and the outer face of the tang has a nice brushed finish I'm going to try using pinline tape from the RC airplane toolkit to protect the tang's outer face while buffing down the bolsters & scales interface with the tang & blade.

This is getting fun! Sadly, I still have 2 sheath projects to undertake for previous knives before I can(read that as "should") get started on this knife.

Ken
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Old 09-03-2011, 11:27 PM
Ken W. Ken W. is offline
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per Ray Rogers:

"Thank you for the kind words but there are many others who do as much as I do and probably don't screw up as often."

per Ken W.: "Asking experts and screwing up is the Fast Track to Enlightenment."
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Old 09-04-2011, 08:36 AM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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Mistakes come from a lack of experience. Experience comes from making mistakes.

Or something like that. Anyway, I think you'll probably abandon that process you're using now and eventually work only with the real blade. Heavy blue masking tape will protect the finish on the blade and the outer edges of the tang that you damage while fitting the scales and bolsters can be refinished at the same time you finish the scales and bolsters. You'll get a perfect fit that way too.

I think they're still bolsters even at the end of the handle because they are attached to the sides of the tang (like a bolster). A portion of the tang passes through a pommel and is secured by a nut at the end of the tang. But, from working on the Knife Definitions Project (see Sticky notes) I feel confident you'll be able to find someone who'll have a different opinion ....


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Old 09-04-2011, 11:06 AM
Ken W. Ken W. is offline
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Life Lesson #2803: "The School of Hard Knocks is a great education if the tuition don't kill ya'."

You're probably right, Ray. I've become a huge fan of blue tape since embarking on this edged journey. Appreciate your assist with the bolster definition as well as the work you and the crew put into the "Definitions" thread. So much good reading, ideas and photos of incredible knives here that it's both inspiring and intimidating.

Here are a couple of pics of the two most recent pieces I've put together.

Both blades came from Texas Knifemakers' Supply. The first is their Big Skinner matte finished SS cryo treated number. The scales are spalted Red Bay from a blighted tree in my front yard. Brass rivets for the pins.



This one is the Hudson Bay damascus blade with ebony scales and mosaic pins. Made it per the specs of the friend it is going to. Just starting to lay out the sheath plans for it this weekend.




Pretty much just "home made kit" stuff. Simple tasks for a simple mind. ( ;>)#

Ken
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Old 09-04-2011, 11:24 AM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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The great majority of us start by assembling kit knives, a few even turn it into an art form all its own. It's a great way to start your knife making journey and yours look just fine. The next thing to do is take those knives out and work them really hard. That will teach you very quickly whether or not the handle is as comfortable as it is good looking as well as point out any deficiencies in blade design for the intended use. As soon as those things become apparent to you, you'll start to form ideas about what makes a good knife and what merely looks good. From there, you'll naturally start designing your own blades because none of the OTC blades will quite meet your ideal. And then you'll be off and running and never look back ...


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Old 09-14-2011, 04:53 PM
Ken W. Ken W. is offline
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Being a Natch'l Born Idjit I keep coming up with new ways to add complexity to this build. ( :>O#

Aqquired some .125 & .25" brass plate. The Mokame is .136" thick. Rather than just build bolsters and grip as a flat 1/8th inch slab on each side for a total grip thickness at the forward end of 3/8" I may pin the mokame to a brass underplate that has been flat beveled down to a triangle plane with the acute forward end at a smidgen over nothing and the aft end at full thickness. That would result in the mokume/brass bolster being 1/8'' at the ricasso and 1/4" at the beveled overhang where the snakewood joins up. This give me a deeper overhang to lock in the scales and a significantly fuller grip with more material for curves.

As if that's not enough I'm considering doing a "semi-blind" pinning of the components using SS tube for the primary hidden pins and a much smaller diameter NS, brass or SS solid pin anchored in the primary tubing and extending through the surface of the bolsters & scales. Kind of a compromise between true blind pinning and "defacing" the mokume and snakewood with full sized pins.

What's the worst that could happen, eh? (beyond a divorce)

Ken W.
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Old 09-14-2011, 06:28 PM
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Let us know how all that works out. A word of (unsolicited) advice though: when 'inventing' new processes it often pays to work out the bugs in the process while using less expensive materials ....


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