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The Business of Knife Making A forum dedicated to all aspects of running, managing and legal operational issues relating to the custom knife making and custom knife selling industry.

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  #1  
Old 08-06-2002, 06:29 PM
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Les Robertson Les Robertson is offline
 
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A View From the EDGE!

There has been alot of talk about factors affecting knife show sales and sales of custom knives in general.

The following are some of the factors I think are affecting sales across the board.

Please feel free to chime in with your thoughts.

1) Something that many people I don't think are taking into account is the amount of knifemakers and dealers has almost tripled in the last 10 years.

The same cannot be said for the customer base.

Consequently, many of the established and not so established makers have seen their business taper off. For many it has tapered offf to the point that they no longer are "active" in custom knives..

Additionally, collectors are much more well informed. As such they are asking better questions and demading more for their money. Some even expect the knives they buy to hold their value.

There are many makers out there who have "rested on their laurels" too long. Now they are paying the price.

2) I agree the economy has had some effect on sales...mostly the $1,500 and above market. My sales are actually ahead of last years at this point.

3) Amount of knives available on the internet. Especially for those buyers of custom knives under $1,000. Many have found they can save the money put towards the expense of the show and get a knife or a second one. Additionally, you save the travel time and the time away from home or work.

4) Fear or Frustration with flying. Looking at the airlines fares, length of time in the check in lines and security lines. Being checked by undertrained people who have been given stupid guildlines (nail clippers???). Is it any wonder people who buy and sell knives are travelling less by air.

Even the travel industry is showing that more people are travelling by car or some other type of motor vehicle on the road.

This of course leads to number 5.

5) Number of knife shows. With so many shows to pick from. People are now going to the ones closer to home. This includes, knife makers, dealers and collectors. Having a show close to home deters many from travelling great distances to attend a show.

I don't think it any one of the four factors. Instead I belive it is any and all combinations of the five.

Some have complained about all the bitching going on. Personally, I love alll the talk among makers, dealers and collectors at shows. You can't buy this type of marketing reseach.

I am always looking to find out who, what materials and which styles of knives are selling. Also, I like to hear who or what is not selling.

I like to check out both ends of a particular market sector.

You just have to develop your "filters" and have your check list to apply to what the intelligence community refers to as "Indications and Warnings"(I & W)..

Of course my type of fun is different from most. I enjoy Marketing Research, Sector Analysis and I & W's.

Oh yea, I like to look at the knives too!

That may be the most interesting thing about custom knives. Everyone has their own ideas about what makes a knife show fun.

Well, let me know what you think.


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  #2  
Old 08-06-2002, 10:32 PM
fisk fisk is offline
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Welcome back from vacation you scandalous rascal. Hope you had a good time.

As to this posting. In my opinion there is nothing else to add. You hit the high spots, if there is anything else it is off shoots to what you have down. I agree with you.

on #1 for the makers who do not try and expand their base and pick up outside of the normal arena of collectors then we all scramble from a shrinking buying public. Shrinking as you said to expanding of makers and not bringing in buyers. My highest sales now are to people that do not collect knives. I will still remain in our circle of collectors of course but a maker must start looking around for new sources also. I agree that the public is more informed. This is a good thing.

#2 The economy. The collectors and makers both are taking hits. It is also natures way of weeding out the weak.

#3 The internet can be a makers best sales tool if used properly. He can keep his collectors informed and teach them as well as reaching a higher loft of sales. The internet is where you will grow most of your collectors. When you bring them in at entry level you must keep them interested and informed so they will go up in what they collect. Grow your own following.

#4 & 5. Yeah that is a biggie with the travel. I look for more of the big shows to be taking hits and the smaller shows to grow. As you said in recent studies people are staying closer to home and traveling more by car. If there is a local show and you do not attend I really recomend signing up as I think business is increasing there. Or shows that reach a large audience. My bigger shows will be shows that are held in costal states. But I will also do a few smaller shows that I can drive to and hit a good area. However this is also where dealers will really come into play if they travel and take their wares to shows. They can be there with your knives when you cannot be there. I would much rather my knives be there when I cannot be. So I look for dealer business to increase if makers watch the market and have to decide how to reach the public best.

Far as the bickering etc. That is always going on. Right now with money tight and sales down it goes on more. Les, you are right you can hear some inside scoop at some tables. Which is good.

Thanks for posting this up. It got me to rethinking about what I am doing and where my goals are.
jf


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  #3  
Old 08-07-2002, 07:53 AM
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An observation from the other side of The Edge -- I'm not a maker, just a guy who loves knives. I agree with everything that Les and Jim have said, and from the perspective of the guy (or gal) on the other side of the table, the growth in the industry has made it much more important than ever for the the maker or seller to SELL HIMSELF a well as his product. Of course this is a rule of sales as old a sales itself, but I think many makers forget that once you get the horse to the water, sometimes the horse hase to be convinced that he's thirsty.
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  #4  
Old 08-07-2002, 02:39 PM
RJ Martin RJ Martin is offline
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Les: This sounds like our phone conversation the other day!
Yes, it is time for the ranks to thin, and for makers to kick their work up to the next level so that they stand out from the crowd.
And, there is still plenty of business for the maker who offers QUALITY, VALUE and VARIETY and is willing to go the extra mile for a customer.

As usual, you are dead on.

RJ Martin


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  #5  
Old 08-07-2002, 04:46 PM
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SharpByCoop SharpByCoop is offline
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Thanks Les!

Timely advice and well-supported. This is important stuff to consider and understand. As a hobbyist who is now spending some money on equipment, I hope to join in the legions soon myself. Stuff like this gives me good direction.

Quote:
Originally posted by fisk
My highest sales now are to people that do not collect knives. I will still remain in our circle of collectors of course but a maker must start looking around for new sources also.
I am seeing this phenomena now from the highest ranks of knifemakers (Jerry Fisk), to the start-ups (Dennis Greenbaum's kit knives). Crazily, BOTH of these men are finding their best sales outside the 'normal' arena.

Exposure, marketing, and educating a new customer base isn't easy, but it may be one of the few ways to stay afloat, and stay interested.

How can handmade custom's or handfinished (kit) knives be made known to the non-knife crowd? We need to look around at new sources. Even Gib Guignard has told me he unloads a BUNCH of great users and better at a simple truckstop. Who'd a thunk? There are upscale opportunities out there as well, but a sale is a sale. I'm just tossing this in the pool as you've invited us to.

Whose next...?

Coop


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  #6  
Old 08-07-2002, 05:29 PM
DC KNIVES DC KNIVES is offline
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As usual Les is right on with his assessment. As far as other sources,there are many. I donate several knives a year to fundraisers, and one to a celebtity fundraiser where my knives are usually are one of the hits.Not only do I get to help many causes that I wouldn't be able to afford to give to,my knives usually go to new or non-collectors. Also try local art and craft shows. I put several in a jewelry store once and sold one.Try different things and have fun.Dave
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  #7  
Old 09-30-2002, 03:20 AM
jchh jchh is offline
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other observatons

First of all, I always enjoy threads like these because I find them so insightful and though provoking, so a big thanks to everyone who makes these kinds of threads worthy of reading!

After the BAKCA show this weekend, here are some more thoughts I've been contemplating on this very same subject.

- Factory phenomenon: to sell knives, more and more factories are starting to form strong bonds with custom makers in order to put out fresh designs at more affordable prices. I mean, if I can buy "factory authorized" pieces from Mr. Fisk and Mr. Lake at around $350 (or less) or get a Mr. Osbourne Benchmade, or a Kershaw Onion, I have very little incentive to buy the real thing if I have other more *expensive* interests than knives: guns, cars, traveling, etc. Personally I was pretty dismayed to see that the one factory knives table at the show received a ton of attention due partly to the variety they bring (they not only brought factory knives, but also gimmicks such as wooden war clubs and other things) but mostly because their items cost less. Granted to make money they would have to sell more, but this did not seem to be a problem from my observation. This leads to ...

- Geography: I know Les touches on this in his #4, Fear of Flying, but this point is extremely underrated by makers in my opinion. If you're not familiar with the California Bay Area then cities like Orinda, Lafayette, Ross, Walnut Creek, Menlo Park, Mountain View, Palo Alto, Marin, Saratoga, Danville, San Ramon, Pleasanton, Los Altos, Half Moon Bay not to mention Berkeley, San Francisco, Santa Clara, San Jose will not make a whole lot of sense to you - but it should. If you were to try to buy a house in this region, you would be looking to spend roughly $450K + for about 1,000 sq. ft. of living space, and this is the low end of the scale. What this boils down to is that this region is a wealthy area; the more people we can get excited about knife collecting, the more educated our particular public will be. Case in point, very recently a new collector who lives in one of the mentioned cities started coming to the BAKCA meetings and within a couple months has already spent close to $10K on an assortment of custom and factory knives. But because he's so new to collecting, he's constantly asking for advice about what to get. I must admit that we, as a club, need to strategize better about how to promote what we do to the public in our region. At the same time, makers who are able to come out to the show AND who are able to explain to those who attend the beauty of their knives will gain valuable clients for life. This leads to ....

- Population: Let's face it: many of the most popular and well-respected knife makers in the U.S. are "caucasian" and I use this label in its broadest sense. While this has made for close-knit groups among makers, this will not help future enthusiasts, collectors or makers who are not "caucasian" especially since the ethnic makeup of America is becoming more diverse by the day. Makers ought not to judge those who attend shows by how they look on the outside especially when they don't know what's on the inside of person, let alone their wallets. I've walked away from many big name makers who give me the *feeling* they either don't want to speak with me or think I can't afford what's on their tables (personally, I don't understand why they'd think I'd show up if I felt I couldn't afford anything). But if you want to create new markets, there are circles outside of "caucasian" circles, and not just the Japanese markets. Now if you DON'T WANT to sell to any other group of buyers except from those you think are of "caucasian" descent, then that's a different matter entirely. But it's why I appreciate makers like Ron Richard, J.P. Holmes and Frank Gamble who've embraced me wholeheartedly and continue to teach me what to look for in knives and how to make them. This leads to ...

- Fit/Finish/materials used: in another thread, Les mentions: "I was amazed at the Blade Show that there were a large group of non-ABS makers who showed up with not one single knife made from S30V," but this quote seems counter-intuitive in its overall meaning. As I read it, Les seems to acknowledge that ABS makers don't use S30V - which is acceptable - because what's the point of being an ABS maker if you don't work in traditional methods using traditional materials? However, non-ABS makers ought to think about using S30V because they are not ABS makers and therefore need the advantage of more modern materials in order to sell anything. Did I read this right, Les? If this reading is accurate, I wonder what people would say if Mr. Fisk created one of his fine pieces in S30V using the stock removal method - would this piece be less valuable or desired? Maybe. But what drives me crazy after having tried my hand at making lock back folders from scratch is that you just don't know what is involved unless you do it, and the crying shame is that no one else knows or can empathize with you unless they've done it too. I know most people who read Les' insights know his penchant for makers who use the best available steels and materials such as S30V, but economics aside, sometimes makers use what they use because they like working with the material. Robert Weinstock mentioned that he likes A2 because he feels it's easier to work than other steels although it may be trickier to heat treat. But if you've ever seen Mr. Weinstock's work, I'd have a hard time believing you'd say he was at a disadvantage because he primarily uses A2. And this is what I can now empathize with: I feel for makers who use materials because it suits their goal and design objectives only to have a buyer or purveyor think "yeah, but it's only A2." I also feel for makers who stick to a certain genre because it's their passion - making swords, bowies or other specialized items - only to not be able to sell anything because their work is not appreciated or superficially recognized by the public. I feel for makers who need to prostitute themselves by having to make things that sell as opposed to making things they actually like (would this include all makers?). I know when it comes to the market, all bets are off for the most part, but as for me, I think I'll support those who have a particular passion for what they make and leave the mostly mundane tacticals to others.

In the end, the fine line between making what you love and making a living oftentimes is not a fine line at all but a huge gap for many of us. How fortunate are those who are able to do both without compromising much.

-Jerome
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  #8  
Old 10-10-2002, 01:19 AM
tom mayo tom mayo is offline
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You mean youre not a caucasian?????


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  #9  
Old 10-10-2002, 10:52 AM
jchh jchh is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by tom mayo
You mean youre not a caucasian?????
Nuh uh. You?

(ps--thanks again for the hat Tom! You're the coolest --> )
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