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High-Performance Blades Sharing ideas for getting the most out of our steel.

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  #1  
Old 10-12-2001, 02:56 PM
nathan dozier
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Talonite vs. 440V???


Hello,
i've made knives from 440V and 420V. they both hold an edge a very long time and i can do a lot of hunting and game chores without having to resharpen and i really like that. i've been thinkin' about gettin' a piece of this Talonite and was wondering will it hold an edge as well as the 440V ??? i know i've left this wide open but wanted ya'll to be able to say anything on this subject. Thanks.
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  #2  
Old 10-16-2001, 07:17 AM
JHossom
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I was ducking this in hopes that the world's leading expert on Talonite, Rob Simonich, migh jump in here, but I know Rob is extremely busy trying to produce some serious combat blades in a big hurry.

You've got an interesting question. If you're interested in maintaining a very fine edge through some hard use, 440V is the better choice. It is a lot harder than Talonite and will keep an edge longer. If you're going to use a knife for everyday chores, Talonite is really hard to beat. It loses it's hair popping sharpness pretty easily, but will keep on cutting well long after other blade materials (steels) have stopped cutting butter.

My personal daily carry is a Tom Mayo TNT Folder with a Talonite blade that cuts like stink even when it won't shave arm hair.

Touching on my favorite subject, edge geometry is important to getting either material to withstand hard use. 440V tends to be a little brittle and will chip; Talonite is a little soft and will roll an edge. A heavy convex edge will serve both materials much better than a fine angled flat bevel.
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  #3  
Old 10-16-2001, 12:12 PM
JerryO13
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Jerry,

I thought that s90v (420v) had all the plus's of s60v (440v) without the minus's
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  #4  
Old 10-16-2001, 02:38 PM
JHossom
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Not as many minuses. I understand S90v (CPM-420V) is less brittle than S60V (CPM-440V), but it is still isn't exactly tough. For example 154CM is tougher. Most blades don't need extreme toughness, however, so S90V is a good choice for a lot of uses like hunters, etc. If you need real toughness plus stainless, then the new S30V should be shipping to some of us as early as next week.
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  #5  
Old 10-16-2001, 03:37 PM
JerryO13
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Jerry,

I only brought it up cause I have a blade in s90v and it cut's and cuts. Ok it's a folder with a 4 1/4" blade but still. Maybe it's the edge geometry, maybe the recurve, maybe the steel, maybe a little of all the above. I've used it on steel tables and ceramic plates and when I finally get it dull it takes one or 2 shots on a spyderco sharpmaker and is going again. I don't go for a razer edge though, I prefer a "duller" not shining, longer lasting edge.

I have also done things with it, that your not supposed to do with knives, like use the spine as a screwdriver and hacked wire, made it through without a problem.

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  #6  
Old 10-16-2001, 05:38 PM
JHossom
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Don't get me wrong, S90V is a good steel. Your edge shape may be what is keeping it from chipping easily. If it works, don't change it. It should be great for edge holding. 9% Vanadium means it isn't going to wear much, even in hard use.
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  #7  
Old 10-16-2001, 06:20 PM
William
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I have been hearing a lot about the new CPM steels lately and thought that one of the reasons for the powder metalergy was to gain finner grain structure.

It has been my experiance that the finer the grain, the longer and better a blade cuts, the easer it is to sharpen and the tougher a blade, at least when properly heat treated.

What gives? 440V with it's fine grain should be very tough compared to it's counterpart 440C when both are same RC.

Are the CPM steels left at a higher hardness or is there something else going on?
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  #8  
Old 10-16-2001, 09:36 PM
nathan dozier
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William,
there is a whole lot goin' on. I'm a student workin' on a metallurgy major at UTEP. Basically the chef with powder metallurgy can take that strainer and put a much finer coating of carbides every where he needs them instead of in globs as in coventional methods. now as far as the fine grains those are a double edged sword. they can promote the growth of something other than what we are after and that is martensite. the fine grains make it very brittle at the same time due to something else that i ain't learned how to say in everyday words. but the main reason that 440C looses it edge is due to the gobs of martensite scattered along the edge and in addition to lacking the Vanadium carbide that forms in 440V. that particular carbide is some very hard stuff and even when you wear off the first layer there's another layer right beside that one to take up where the other left off. maybe this helps and thanks everyone that commented.
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  #9  
Old 10-16-2001, 09:43 PM
nathan dozier
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Mr. Hossom,

so in the kitchen, or game cleaning knife would you prefer to have 440V or the talonite??? i'm more concerned about staying safe and refuse to use a material that will dull rapidly and that i have to use a lot of force into to get it to do whatever it is. i'm not trying to back you into a corner here just want your $.02 worth. thank you!!!! I know both materials are very expensive and need a little more convincing before i try and buy that piece of talonite, if i do.
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  #10  
Old 10-17-2001, 08:21 AM
JHossom
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Actually, I backed myself into a corner here. There is a WHOLE lot going on with both of these blade materials.

The key to all CPM steels is effective heat treating. It just can't be done well unless you're equipped to use an interupted oil or salt quench, and using tool wrap makes that very difficult. Unless the quench from hardening temperature (~2000F) down to ~1000F is fast, the steel will either not harden properly or will be brittle. In my judgement most of the negative comments leveled at CPM's are the result of poor heat treating. Factories, for example, heat treating hundreds or thousands of blades simple can not quench them all fast enough to get the best out of these steels. That probably accounts for most of the negative comments.

The toughness issue with CPM-440V (S60V)and CPM-420V (S90V) is due to the balance of available Carbon (>2%) and Chromium (>16%) in the mixes. Even with the high Vanadium, the Carbon and Chromium form into large, coarse carbides that make the steel brittle. Slow quenching makes that problem even worse, since the slower the quench, the large the Chromium Carbides. The carbides in these steels are incredibly hard and wear resistant, but the price is that they won't tolerate hard abuse. That said, hunters and kitchen knives are not likely to get beaten up too badly. The greatest risk to a hunter is in trying to pop a hip joint loose; that might break a fine edge. Tossing a fine pointed chef's knife into the sink wouldn't be good idea either.

Both CPM's are good steels, most negative comments are likely due to faulty heat treating, and 420 is probably a little better than 440 because of the higher Vanadium. Talonite is also good, but is not for heaving banging either. If I had to choose, I'd likely go with CPM-420V for the hunter and Talonite for the kitchen knife.
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  #11  
Old 10-23-2001, 10:26 PM
Rob Simonich
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??


Thanks Jerry, you answered quite nicely indeed! Sorry for the delay, like you said, very busy getting knives out to some of the boys on the sharp end of the stick. Also, it is hunting season here and my family relys on me making meat for the whole year this time of year. Also get to do some field testing at the same time! Ill try to get in here more. Thanks!
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