American Knife Heritage (repost)

[Julie Coffey]

I had originally posted this in the 'Fine Embellishment' section where it was suggested I post it also here.

I will preface that I am very new to knifemaking- and am NOT a American History buff. I am a member of the Society for Creative Anachronism- historical medievalists or a honest attempt therein. So you will understand the premise of this repost. Thanks for your patience and understanding in advance.

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It came up as a matter of discussion with some of my SCA friends today. They were talking about our SCA friends in the UK(United Kingdom) who are surprised we dont play 'cowboys and indians' here which in turn evolved into a conversation about our American Western Heritage. And if any particular 'blade' or knifestyle was considered a standard or 'knife that won the west'.

They have a great deal of faith in you guys- they figured after hanging out here on these boards for a few months I'd know everything. Silly wonderful people.

But I did promise them I'd ask you good folks here and then get back to them at our meeting in May.

Thank you in advance for any help you may offer.

Julie

[bladeymae]

I'm going to take a wild guess and say that there were more Green River skinners used in the west than all the other knives put together. Again i'll say that's a guess and if anyone knows for sure, jump in and set the record straight.

Johnny

[J.Arthur Loose]

There is, of course, the bowie... many of which were even made in England. There are plenty of folks who play cowboy, and many of them buy nice custom bowies... but I think "playing Indian," might prove sticky.

[Chuck Burrows]

As to "playing" cowboy and Indian - for many it's as serious as any other living history group - and frontiersmen, cowboy, and Indian re-enacators are world wide not just in the USA:

SASS - the Single Action Shooting Society - although covering a broad spectrum is the grandfather of Cowboy Action Shooting. time period is approximately 1865-1920, but some of the Hollywood stuff does creep in so many are not PC/HC.

NCOWS - a much smaller group is more historically inclined. Time period represented is 1865-1899

There are also frontier re-enactors reaching back to the early colonial period.

Knives - maybe not specifically the Green River skinner but depending on time and place the common trade knife - essentially a butcher knife of various types and sizes - was the most widely used FIXED blade. Brands and types were called by various names: butcher, scalper, hunter, skinner - original makers/suppliers were mainly from England up until the late 1830's when John Russell began his Green River manufactury. Besides the "butcher" type other blade styles were also imported including the spear point dag.

As Jon mentioned the Bowie, in all it's variants was another frontier favorite and the major suppliers were in fact from Sheffield, England. American makers existed but couldn't out pace the English.

But note how I stated FIXED blade - that's because for the population in general and cowboys in particular the ubiquitous folding knife was by far the most widely carried/used. The stock man folding knife in fact got it's moniker due to it's popularity amongst cow men. Not so glamorous maybe as other types/styles but for the uses it was intended it did the job splendidly and didn't add bulk to the already considerable weight being packed on horseback.

As to "playing" Indian there are actually quite a number of whites portraying either "white" Indians (captives gone "native") or full bloods - this is more so with the 18th century types than the nineteenth - most with out any problem from the authentic NDn's.

[Julie Coffey]

Hi Chuck! Nice to see you again. I really have enjoyed that DVD set I purchased of yours.

Now I want to preface our 'Brit' friends who are in the SCA across the puddle find it 'confusing' that many of us would do living history of the middle ages over 'here' in a country that has such a relatively short history. That being said. When I was over there and doing leather. All they wanted was Western things- anything. I sold my Hereford saddle two weeks off the plane for 3x what it was worth- they offered so why not. And I did some holsters and tooled belts as well.

Its purely a perspective thing for them- theyhave the castles in their back yards. We have the plains States and everything on either side. (grass is always greener syndrome). Now in the SCA many of us refer to it as playing but the research and effort put into recreation is very intense or can be, of course it all depends on the individual doesnt it? The obvious reason we do this is to have fun. Most of the Brits I know and have known would rather watch football then spend their time recreating what surrounds them.

I respect anyone who applies themselves, does the research and puts forth a sound effort in ANY venue. That being said- I want to thank everyone for their imput. I have something a bit more solid then conjecture to bring back to them now.

Thank you for the sound advice- its a pleasure meeting you all!

Julie

[Roger Gregory]

Julie

Just a few observations from an Englishman

The SCA hasn't really taken off over here in the same way as it has over there. Possibly because the SCA seems to cover so many centuries, possibly because it is seen as creating "high fantasy", I don't know. The SCA people I have met have all been very nice and very knowledgeable.

Instead there are dozens of other societies which specialise in particular periods. Locally there is a Celtic recreationist group, the Dobunni who research and recreate the lives of the "Ancient Britons" of the local tribe here around the time the Romans poked their noses into these islands.

Then there are the ####ed Romans .... they build Roman artillery, sew leather marching tents, forge lorica segmentata and appear in every television history documentary going...

Regia Anglorum deal with King Arthur's time (I can hear them all grinding their teeth as I type that) .... filling in the period from the Roman departure up to the arrival of the next lot...

The Vikings are one of the world's most respected historical research/recreationist groups. Their longships feature in more than a few documentaries, films and television dramas. A scary bunch when it comes to recreating battles!

There are several mediaeval societies, I can't remember all the names. One or two concentrate specifically on the Wars of the Roses period. The Battle of Tewkesbury a few miles up the road from me is one of their highlights. You should visit if you get the chance to come back again!

The most colourful are The Sealed Knot who are the first lot to let off lots of gunpowder. The Civil War (English, not American) was the big squabble between King and Parliament, resulting in King Charles losing his head .... A couple of friends round here are musketmen in one regiment. Another chap I know used to hitch-hike around the country in helmet, buff jacket and carrying an 18 foot pike

Send your British SCA friends out into the rest of the country, they're missing a lot if they've not seen all these other groups scrapping all over the place.

I'll be going to the jousting at Berkeley castle over a couple of weekends this year .... might even have a look at the knives and swords.

Roger

[Julie Coffey]

Hello Roger it is nice to meet you! I do understand about the differences, I think thats what makes it so wonderful. There is room for everyone.

What my friends can't get past is how we manage to have a Medieval feast (of sorts) in a high school gym. When they and myself were used to having Castles overlooking our village. They just can't quite grasp that. But support our endevours regardless.

Have fun this summer 'storming the castle'. I'd love to come back for a visit, its been too long and I probably wouldn't recognise much now anyway.

All the best,

Julie

[J.Arthur Loose]

Where I live (Mountain Freehold,) everyone plays Viking or Germanic Tribes / Roman... so the castle would be an unwelcome anchronism anyway...

...But we do have deep, dark forests, which England lacks.

[mstu]

Hi Julie,
Interesting thread. For me, 2 and probably 3 of my grandparents were first- or children of first-generation immigrants to the US. The other grandparent's family was in the US since the early 1600s, nearly long enough ago to be in period for the SCA. So I don't have as much family history here in the US in the 19th century, compared to many other folks. Plus I've always been attracted to the Viking era, and almost all of my ancestry is either Scandinavian, Germanic, or British Isles in origin so it fits pretty well.

Outside of Spain I've not been to Europe, but I get a good dose of historical and precolumbian architecture on regular visits to central and sometimes southern Mexico. I was heavily into SCA as a Viking for a number of years, but less so these days. Before I moved a state away, I also used to be on a team that played toli, the Choctaw variety of Native American stickball. I've also done a bit of study of Japanese swordsmanship. So in a roundabout way, I guess I've been interested in all kinds of historical recreation, although most hasn't been based on local history where I live.

Anyway, sorry to ramble on, but I think the interest itself is there in many folks, and the particular expression of that interest will depend both on personal interest and on what happens to be available where a person lives.

Michael