International Association of Engraving Arts (members wanted)

[D'Angelo]

Hello people, I need to start collecting the names & E-mail addresses of the folks who anticipate on joining this new Association. Spread the word about it to fellow engravers, get thier interest,names & e-mails. Compile a list and E-mail them to myself. The reason why I need to start forming a list is because ,when the time arrives I will be mailing out a personal invitation to these people to come join us ,veiw our new site and perhaps join if they are interested. Please do not be offended if I do not respond to your e-mail. I am getting flooded with e-mails. I am just compiling a mailing list, and do not have the time to respond to everyone. I still need to cut to make a living. Ray and I are doing this in our spare time. please understand that this will take some time. We anticipate getting the site up as soon as possible along with the forum. But not all areas will be working right away. The members only area will be off limits till we compile enough tutorials and documentation for our members to enjoy. The rest of the site will be available to everyone including the general forum.
Thank you, Wayne
wayne@dangeloengraving.com

[pilkguns]

I have been giving some more thought to the proposed new association. When I first heard about it last week in Kansas from some of the other GRS instructors I was very pleased with the idea (I was in Germany the two weeks prior and had not been on this board). It seems like a great idea in many respects, and tallys nicely with the new Art Degree that is in the works from ESU. But, thinking about it more, I guess I don?t understand totally why we are trying to re-invent the wheel. FEGA basically does EVERYTHING that has been touted for this new organization. (and before some of you flamers start, Read the English language people, I did say ?basically?). I have serious issues with FEGA on a number of points. And on the flip side of the coin, I have serious issues with NRA, CMP, USA Shooting, and other organizations that I strongly support. But they are the best game in town for what they need to do, and it seems counter productive to the BIG picture to try to thwart them or tear them down. It?s the old United we stand, Divided we fall scenario.

FEGA is not perfect organization, but it is making great strides in recent years. I find it ironic that several of the proponents of this new association have never been a FEGA member (as stated on this forum in the past, if my memory is correct). I am not condemning their lack of FEGA membership, I myself dropped out for several years because I did not like some of the politics, but I am condemning their condemnation of an organization that they have never been a part of, or tried to change. I have worked at times to see changes in FEGA and been frustrated by lack of change at times. BUT. I also know many of the challenges of volunteer ran, membership managed organization, that will also be inherent to this new association. So the new organization will be gaining nothing in this respect.

The only thing I see that this new group has to offer that FEGA does not, is a non-firearms focused viewpoint. I love guns in all shapes in sizes, but I have engraved many non-fiream related objects, as I am sure EVERY firearms engraver has as well. Would it not be MUCH better to work within the framework of 20 year old organization, that already has major news coverage of its events, and is already recognized as an expert source of information?


I am not sure what would be required to change the FEGA charter, to open it up to all types of engraveable objects, but it can?t be that difficult and I doubt the legal fees would be as much as trying to stand up a new non-profit organization. (and I do have some recent experience in that with Olympic Shooting.) Without speaking for anyone other than myself, I think there are several current and past FEGA officers who would support such a change.

So before we go too far down this road, of creating a new organization that does almost the same thing, why don?t we persue the option of everyone joining FEGA, and then work to modify it to allow and promote engraving on other objects. If not changing the charter, maybe their could be separate category in FEGA for art engraving, I am sure there are lots of ways to accomplish what everyone wants, getting more exposure for artistic hand engraving, whether it is on a Rigby rifle, Tiffany jewelry, a cell phone or Bubba?s pocket knife.

That?s my thoughts at the moment, If you think I am missing something, I would love to see some input from some of you guys?.

Scott Pilkington

PS: and I am leaving this afternoon for the Collegiate Pistol Championships, so will be hard to catch on the internet the next few days, but will try to check in as often as I can.

[Christian D.]

Scott I understand what you are saying, but I think you know that over the last few years a number of us have been working within fega to make these changes and everytime we are shot down. The other issue is that when it comes to the show we are grouped with the custom gunmakesrs guild and they dont seem to care one bit about what fega needs or wants. If you rember a few years ago when fega needed a draw for their gate they invited the bladesmiths society to join our show because sci moved to vegas while the expo center in reno was being remodled. after the two year period and with the return of sci to reno they voted to not have the knifemakers return. The bladesmiths were devistated and decided to have their own show in the same hotel at the same time. It was an astounding sucess and now in their third year they raise about thirty thousand dollars at their dinner and action , money that could have been in fega if they had the forsight to keep them on. If you think that by a number of new people joining is going to spur fega to change their charter, think again I dont believe that will ever happen. If I am wrong then lets hear from the people at fega, I know they are all monitoring this site. That aside I have a commitment for funds to back this new orginization and will need some costs so I can let them know. I also want to say that we are not trying to destroy what fega has accomplished, Im sure it will continue on and be successfull, but all that are interested in this new international group, and now with the announcement of this new degree in emporia we would like to go our own way. that doesnt mean that one group has to or is going to end they can exist together and people can belong to both groups and benifit from both equally. All that are interested send your name to Wayne so we can keep this ball rolling Christian

[D'Angelo]

THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH FEGA!!!! ( I am really getting tired of hearing this!!!)

Thank you Christian for a statement well said. This new association has nothing to do with trying tear down FEGA. It is a association to bring engravers from all the different fields together in one place to chat, discuss new ideas exchange techniques ect......We are forming this association to hopefully make public awareness of what we do, so it may be appreciated and respected more.Also to educate the general public on our artform so it may be looked upon one day as it should be. TRUE ART!!!! not just putting a name on something, thats what most people think engraving is!!! There will be no discrimination with our association.

[pilkguns]

Hey Chris,
good hangin out last week (you ought to consider a second career as chauffer...LOL), and I wish we had had more time to get in this deeper in Emporia, but we did what we could. I am really betwixt and between on this issue, as you mentioned and I could mention more, things at FEGA are not all that they could be. For sure, I know you have tried with FEGA and like me, have contributed your time and knowledge to the organization. But knowing the nature of all human organizations, I am not sure we will get what want with the new either. BUT, as we talked in Kansas, a little competiton is good for everybody. Just as Steve's Airgraver pushed GRS to create new and better hand pieces and foot controls, so having second organization can push both organizations for the betterment of the entire engraving community. I have sent my name already to Wayne, and will do what I can there and look forward to seeing what develops.
Scott

[Ray Cover Jr]

Scott,

I want to second what Christian and Wayne have said. We are not trying to replace Fega or take anything away from them. Our hope is that we will have members who belong to and give input to both organizations.

What are we trying to offer that FEGA doesn't?

1. FEGA is a gun engraver only organization. There is nothing wrong with that. However, we want to include the entire scope of engraving arts including printmakers who engraver their plates, hobo nickel engravers, and jewelry engravers.

2.The tutorial section and tips and tricks sections of this website are going to be way beyond what any of you are even imagining. FEGA does a lot of education throught their siminars at their annual meets and this is a wonderfaul thing. I have even bought some of the tapes. We are doing ours online. This way people don't have to make it to Reno or buy the tape to get the info. Using this different outlet gives people another option.

3. We want to provide a private area on the chat forum where we can go and constructively critique and be critiqued by our peers without the fear that our customers are watching what others are saying about our work. Fega doesn't have anything like this.

4. We will have an extensive section of articles on the history of engraving, and various other engraving related topics for public view. We will use this section of our website to educate the public and our clientel about engraving, explaining the difference between art and production work, what to look for, desirable design qualities etc, etc,. We want to make educated consumers. Fega doesn't do that either. at least not online

5. Wayne's concept of the newbies area of the forum will almost be like an online corespondance course where new engravers can learn to engrave and get one on one help from others in that forum. Fega doesn't do that.

It will take us a while to get this thing to the point we want it. It is going to be a lot of work and our vision is that the library of info on the site is never finished but is always continuing to grow. But we are trying to do a lot of things Fega has not. We do plan to offer things they don't. Hopefully the two organizations will inspire and influence each other instead of conflict with each other.

Ray

[HermanKnives]

I havent commented on any of this since it has started but I have heard NOTHING good about FEGA in years! Plus FEGA means FIREARMS engravers guild of america? Kinda says what they think about us other "lesser" engravers dont you think?

[Ray Cover Jr]

Tim,

I am not Fega Member anymore. I was for a while but since I primarily am a knife engraver rather than a gun engraver, Fega did not have much to offer me. I also think I was fed some bad info back then about how they worked things.

To say that their desire to strictly be a firearms related group is a derogatory comment on other engravers is unfair. That is kinda like saying because the Knifemakers guild is a knife related group they look down on black powder shooters. The fact that the Knifemakers Guild is a knife related group has no bearing on their feelings toward black powders shooters. The two issues are totally unrelated. Likewise, the claim cannot be made that FEGA looks down on other forms of engraving becasue they are a gun related group.

We could have decided to have just a knife engravers association and there would have been nothing wrong with that. There is nothing wrong with FEGA being a gun related group and we cannot take that as a derogotory remark against the rest of us.

The last thing we need is to stir up and keep a pissing contest going between the two groups. Pardon me for being frank but that is the cold hard truth of it. If our two organizations are going to be biting and taking shots at one another it is going to do nothing but give both of us a black eye. That kind of behavior will not make our two organizations appear like professionals before the viewing world. Rather, it is going to make us look like two little kids that can't get along on the playground.

My hope is that we have people who are members of both groups and support both groups. We need to work together for the common good of the engraving arts not waste our engergies looking for faults in each other.

I know I have not always said good things about FEGA. I have vented my frustrations about their reluctance to expand into other fields of engraving. I was wrong for doing so in pulbic without "just cause" beyond my own frustration. It is time to put aside our attitudes, prejudices and hurt pride and see a common goal.

Lets get these two groups pushing together for our art form. I will do everything in my power to prevent us from wasting our time and engergy pushing against each other.

Please help me out.

Ray

[gravertom]

I'm with you.

I just sent a check out last week to renew my lapsed FEGA membership.

I look forward to being a part of both groups, and I think both have their place.


Talk to you soon,

Tom

[HermanKnives]

Ray, I didnt mean it to seem derogatory but limiting their efforts strictly to firearms engraving to me leaves a lot of exquisite "engraving" being done not even mentioned. It just strikes me as they are only willing to promote to the unknowing public their type of work whereas we are trying to promote all types of engraving.
Plus some stories I have heard about having to jump through various hoops to get "higher" ranking there seems as childish as another pissing contest as you say.
To me the word "engraving" covers it all be it firearms or knives or jewelry. Hell i even engraved one of my tattoo machines and heat blued it.
Also, comparing a knifemaking organization to a black powder shooters club to me isnt even in the same ballpark, so I guess I dont understand your point there.
I'm all for promoting engraving to the world as best we can and think we should just go about it as if there is no FEGA or any other engraving group in existence and go at it from the very beginning. Anyway, sorry about bringing up FEGA but I just dont think they have achieved much other than for the firearms world. Looks like you and Wayne are off to the right start Good luck with it.

[Ray Cover Jr]

What I was trying to point out is that the two groups don't have anything to with one another - and - the one group excluding the second does not mean any ill will or lack of respect exist.

My analogy may not have been the best but I have another that my be a little better.

The association that we are forming is for Metal engravers. That is what we are wanting to promote. We are excluding those who do wood engravings, not becasue we think they are inferior or engraved wood prints are a lesser art form, that is just not what we want to promote. We want to promote "metal" engravers. By doing so we aren't saying or even exhibiting that we have a bad view of wood engravers.

We can't infer that Fega looks at us as inferior or as leser artisans just because they want to concentrate on gun engraving. Lets face it all of these type organizations are set up to promote a particular movement or artform. All associations and organizations exclude someone by their very nature.

That's all I was trying to say with that analogy. Bear with me the best examples don't always jump to mind the first time (often not the second either)

Ray

[D'Angelo]

With all do respest Tim and all the others who are dragging FEGA into this. This is getting blown way out of porportion.
Tim, this your your statement word for word!!!...( Anyway, sorry about bringing up FEGA but I just dont think they have achieved much other than for the firearms world.)
Other than the firearms world???...Hello??? the name of their Guild is The Firearms engravers guild of america, FIREARMS..Get it people??? They promote firearm engraving, that is their focus and there is nothing wrong with that.
This new association is focused to promote all areas of hand engraving. No certain medium here!!!. It's the ARTFORM not what we apply our ART to!!!. Ray Christian and myself chose this route to promote, educate and inform the general public and collectors that what we do should and will be considered an ARTFORM as it should have been for many years!! It will be a place for fellow engravers from around the world and all walks of life to come together as 1 and share ideas, techniques and to just chat amongst our own kind. Everyone forms their own associations everyday pertaining to a certain field of interest. Ours just happens to be all forms of handengraving.
....Excuse me if im coming off rude in anyway, but this is really getting old, there is no reason why both organizations can not exist together and feed off each other.
Enough said on my part...I am tired frustrated and going to bed!!!

[Tim Adlam]

Wayne,

I can appreciate that launcing this project can be stressful.

The comments made in the threads related to the engravers assoc. on this forum
shows the degree of input and concern for the success of this venture.

When you ask people to support something monetarily...expect to be heard from the membership.

It seems appropriate that FEGA comes up from time to time.
After all, it's the only non-profit org. within the engraving community anyone has to compare this new organization to.
I'm a long-term member of the FEGA, but not as physically involved as Scott, Chris, Lee or Ron are.
Even so, I support their mission for promoting "Firearms as Art".

I will support the IAEA's mission to my best capacity as well.

The one thing the IAEA has that the FEGA didn't have is the open discussion format available on this forum.
I'm proud that we can provide this service.

Look at it from the historical point of view...there's a lot of individuals who are witness
to the birth of something great for the engraving fraternity.
The discussion, concerns, ideas, etc., are all part of the growing pains.

Let it all get hashed out here...but remember the image you want to project to the world as well.

Tim

[Ray Cover Jr]

Well said Tim.

Ray

[HermanKnives]

Wayne, yes you are coming across as rude. Did you read my first quote..."I havent commented on any of this since it has started but I have heard NOTHING good about FEGA in years! Plus FEGA means FIREARMS engravers guild of america."
Then your snide comment...
"Other than the firearms world???...Hello??? the name of their Guild is The Firearms engravers guild of america, FIREARMS..Get it people??? Yea I got it! Seems to have slipped by you though. "They promote firearm engraving, that is their focus and there is nothing wrong with that."

Yea I got it and that was my point exactly, and I never said there was anything wrong with that, just that it seemed rather limiting to me in promoting "engraving" period no matter what the medium its put on.

I dont know how long you have been around but I have been engraving for over 20 years and dont appreciate being talked down to like I'm some stupid jerk with the IQ of snot! If this is the attitude of its founding members then I sure as hell wont become a part of it. This is starting to look just like every other organization where the main honchos hear something they dont like they rail the guy for his negative opinion. Well you can have your new association.

And you are right, this is being blown way out of proportion...by you! This kind of nonsense is why I rarely post here anymore and probably wont very often again. I wish your new association success honestly and hope you all succeed in reaching new people.