Introducing Peterinct

[Tim Adlam]

Welcome aboard Peter!

Peter recently signed on this forum, but alas his first and hopefully not last post was part of a deleted thread.
I want Peter's first post/comment to be read.

Here's how it goes.

Quote by Marcus Hunt in reply to Steve Ellsworth's comment

...I didn't know whether to laugh or cry when I read one of the threads on the Lindsay forum. One poor chap is beside himself because he has a GraverMax and not an Air Graver.... poor guy, what is even more sick making is that he admits to being a beginner. Man, learn to engrave first with whatever tools you have to hand and when you're accomplished maybe decide to change systems.

Peter's reply

Hi,
My name is Peter and I believe it was my post on Steve Lindsay's Forum Marcus is referring to. Marcus, first of all, I think you read a bit more into my post than I had expressed. I simply stated that I was unaware of the acceptance of the Airgraver at the time I purchased GRS equipment. If I had it to do over again, I may have made a different selection.

I fully agree with you Marcus in that the tools do NOT make an engraver. I have a fondness for tools and have a collection of woodworking tools and machinist hand tools dating back to the 1800's. I have liked knives most of my life and have been an avid collector for about a decade now.

I have worked a career in the Information Technology field and I am faced with a distinct realization that my job will be eliminated and I will be forced to find a new means of support. That said, I have always liked working with my hands and have done leatherwork, stone cutting, knife embellishments, etc. on a hobby level for many years. In seeing an add for GRS in Blade, I attended the Basic Engraving course and got the bug. I may never achieve the level of the work I see here and elsewhere but my philosophy is: at the very least, I will be able to enhance my own collection and on the up side, I may be able to supplement my income engraving knives, jewelry and various other objects.

The one thing that is definite is that I love the satisfaction I get from cutting metal and having it be pleasing to look at.

I just recently found this forum and it is absolutely a wealth of information as is Steve Lindsay's.

My intent is not to make comparisons between one tool being superior to another as the tools I have are most certainly more capable than I at this point in time.

I had no idea that there is a 'mine is better than yours' feeling between those that use one brand vs. another.

The bottom line is for me is I appreciate the existence of the forums as it exposes me to what exists in the field and the information I have found is invaluable.

Thanks to everyone that contributes.

Peter

My reply

I saw merit in the discussion contained on Steve Ellsworths deleted thread.
A bit heated for sure, but good points all-around.

What I find distasteful is when someone is made to feel uncomfortable saying their piece, or discouraged from becoming
an active participant on this or any forum thread because of some in-your-face personality.
Those of us who put our time in from the beginning of this board helping others, don't care for anyone pissing on what has been built.
Our apologies Peter.

Tool vs Tool
I invite the spokespersons sactioned by GRS, Lindsay tools, and others to acknowledge yourselves, and answer technical questions.
If there aren't any reps here...go to the source.
Those are the individuals who have the answers based on facts, not conjecture.

On deleting threads

It's a dis-service to allow people to participate in a thread, only to pull the rug out from under them because things aren't going your way.
I never saw a reason to shut it down.
If it wasn't worth writing in the first place...don't.
My belief is... Men stand by their words.
There's no dishonor in having to change your position on another's point of view.
That's what open forum discussion is all about.
If nobody can find some middle-ground, that's fine...you can choose to take your self-importance elsewhere.

In the end game, when people are pounding with their shoe on the podium to get their point across, it's often better to be kind...than right.

An ancient Chinese proverb worth consideration...
The sage does not talk, the talented ones talk, and the stupid ones argue.

Anyways, please welcome Peter to the forum.


Tim

[biggles]

Now that's what I call a "Grand Entrance"

Well, after all that, welcome aboard Peter. This forum is a great place with some really good people. Like you I'm a novice at engraving. I also did leatherwork many years ago and loved carving leather in particular.

Again welcome

Best regards
Andrew Biggs

[Marcus Hunt]

Peter, if I misconstrued your comments on the other forum then I apologise but that was how it came across. It's good to have you aboard here.

Tim, I was disappointed that the thread was discontinued but I can see why Steve did it. I asked him to go back and edit the last comments because things were becoming personal. I think he thought it was just better to close the whole thing down, which was a bit of a shame considering all the hours we put into it.

As far as I was aware, this is a place for people with something in common to come and share, critique, chew the fat, debate, and whatever. Human beings were never designed to wholeheartedly to agree with everything someone else says; far from it. So differing points of view make good reading and can prove very informative. Now, here's the important bit......whatever one person thinks of the other during such times of debate (which can get quite heated, LOL) it should never degenerate to a 'personal' level. Such things can lead to slander and libel charges being brought and just because this is an electronic media it won't give you a 'get out of jail free' card. Now nobody here even wants to contemplate such things because we're all here to make new buddies or correspond with old friends. Steve and I have sorted our differences and I hope are now on track to becoming good buddies.

Just for the record:
I'm a full time engraver who has been engraving for 28 years. Over here we have to make a living just like you guys in the US, we are not protected and I certainly don't have it made. I do not know everything. I'm learning everyday and quite a lot of it is from you guys. I use a GraverMach and am more than happy with it, thank you, but that doesn't stop me wanting to learn about other tools or perhaps take them on board at some stage. My favourite saying..."Tools are just tools, it's the results that count." And finally, I do have opinions but they are just that opinions; I am not the messiah, they are not gospel, I can be wrong.

all the best to all of you from across the pond
Marcus

[Cwax]

I ussauly do not post Becuase ofintenses like this.
We all have to make a living with waht we have.To solve this isssue buy both tools.
I have them both and each one is as good as the other.
Joe

[steve ellsworth]

I tried editing the thread to take the bad parts out and accidently dumped the whole thing by clicking on the first message. so whats why i said i killed the thread.

I felt it was getting to the point of doing more damage than good to the reputation of the tool makers involved and at the end it just plain got nasty.

I am sure that lots of people including SL and you have complete copies and the ability to restore the portions of the thread you wish to.

You know Tim Memorial day is not a good time to screw with a Nam vet as Marcus found out. Neither is the rest of the week.

Earlier I had written a reply to you which i decided not to post becasue I don't feel the need to rip you up over your comments about my manhood. I been places you haven't and I have put people in the dirt for far less so let's just stay on the topic and leave the penis envy crap alone shall we. I think it would be a wise choice.

Marcus. I think we accomplished a lot, none of it new. This tool crap has been going on for years. Other than the patent issues you didn't have a handle on I think now you do see the validity in trying other tools to see if they can help you to achieve different levels and the necessity for protecting your creations in America. Do take the opportunity to visit that fellow near you and try the Airgraver just for kicks and let me know how it handles.



I am glad we got through that. Now you and I can be friends and I suppose Tim will work hard to press this to the point where we are at odds but thats the way of forums.

Everyone gets to pick their own battles but not always the right ones.

[Marcus Hunt]

Steve, I too am glad we got through this. I learned a lot from it and for that I'm grateful. I guess I'll never understand the patent issue on something as fundement as how someone chooses to sharpen a graver (especially under 99% of circumstances its royaly free), but over that I think we'll have to agree to disagree (as friends can). As far as other stuff is concerned I think we actually think very much alike and I could see something good coming from what at one stage was looking like a rift between us.

You say you're a Vietnam Veteran, then you'll understand. I've never been in combat but I have lost friends and loved ones long before their time should've been up. Therefore, as I see it, we should seize the day and take any chance we can to make new friendships. Life's to short and there's already enough crap going on in this world to bring or start it here on the forum.

Both GRS and SL are both great toolmakers giving individual engravers each unique opportunities to develop their craft and art further. They just achieve this in slightly different ways. But what I do know is that I'm not going to war because I use a different tool to someone else

And Steve, I will take some time out to go and try my friends Air Graver....can't say fairer than that can I?

all the best
Marcus

[steve ellsworth]

Thats more than fair, I'll be looking forward to reading your comments.

No I have had enough wars, I did VN Honduras Panama a bit of Desert Storm 15 years of working plane crashes homicide and other nasties for the FED and civilain agencies. I have had my fill, unfortunatley Pandora gets out of the box at times. Especially around this time of the year when I think back on all the crap and the memories of all the deaths pop in. It's those timees when I am better off engraving than writing.

Life is too short to drink cheap wine.
Take care and thanks,
SLE

[peterinct]

Tim,
Thank you very much for the introduction. As I said, the forums are invaluable to me in advancing my engraving skills. I can certainly understand why the thread was deleted as it did seem to be creating some heated opinions. As Marcus stated, tools do not make a craftsman. I learned that many years ago in various endeavors using them. I have always been amazed by engraving from my earliest exposure to engraved guns. The week I spent at GRS was as enjoyable as any vacation i've gone on in my life!

The people at GRS were super and were very service oriented. Being there and touring the shop really made a lasting impression.

That being said, I would also like to add that Steve Lindsay made quite an impression on me as well. I have been perusing his site for quite a while now and joined the Forum there. Without realizing I was essentially advertising for his competitor, I had referenced a GRS product. Steve called me at home to explain why my post was edited and he was not only very gracious but we spoke for quite some time and he answered any question that I had.

On another topic, I saw the post from Jon Dake regarding his first "project". I can identify wholly with him as I have been cutting nothing but practice plates for a while now and have that same reservation he spoke of. Hopefully I will have some work to post at some point in the not too distant future myself!

Thanks again,
Peter

[Brian Marshall]

This thread is titled “Introducing “Peterinct”, so I’ll do that first. Welcome, and please don’t get the idea the idea that this is a dangerous place to ask questions and post your opinions. It’s really not.

Whenever you get a group of independent minded artists, craftsmen or whatever you choose to call us together you’re gonna get some sparks. You just happened to come in during the middle of a sparkfest!

Human beings all seem to think that who they are and what they do individually is extremely important in the grand scheme of things in the universe. Personally, I don’t believe that anyone is gonna be affected by anything that I can say or do a few thousand years down the road – so I don’t take things as seriously as some do…

Ask your questions, read the replies, choose what you might think would work and try it out. In this group you may get a dozen different answers – and all of them may work to some degree for the proponent. My advice is to remember that how something gets done doesn’t matter as much as getting it done.


To Tim:

Tool vs Tool
"I invite the spokespersons sactioned by GRS, Lindsay tools, and others to acknowledge yourselves, and answer technical questions.
If there aren't any reps here...go to the source.
Those are the individuals who have the answers based on facts, not conjecture."


To my knowledge no one other than Steve himself is a representative of his company. Those who speak about his tools or his graver grind are doing so out of personal experience – nothing more.

Steve doesn’t have enough time to participate in all the forums, and some people have tried to make sure that what they see as best product out there is exposed to everyone else.

Some have more experience, some have less, some may tend to express themselves a little too strongly, but keep in mind that none (including myself) have the right to be the ultimate authority on Lindsay products. That space is reserved for Steve.


To Marcus:

I am not really qualified or knowledgeable enough to try and explain how our patent system works, but I’ll try. First you should know that an object does not need to have moving parts in order to be patented. An example might be the square drive screwdriver... a simple idea, granted a patent, but something easily reverse engineered - does that make it any less eligible for a patent?

Patents are designed to give the inventor control of his invention for a limited time. Then the invention becomes public property. This is to encourage inventors to invent, and still give the rest of us the free use of the invention after the time period has passed. Whether the inventor chooses to sell it, ####### it, or limit it’s use is entirely up to the person to whom the patent has been granted.

Steve chose to ####### his, as is his right once the patent is granted and he has paid his fees. Any school, factory, or manufacturer that wants to make a PROFIT from this patent is quite welcome to contact Steve and negotiate paying him what would amount to a small percentage for its use. For example, if a factory wants to produce these gravers, presharpened and ready to use - the percentage that they would pay under the licensing agreement might be 5%. Not much, but a few thousand pieces every year for the life of the patent (20years) can add up. It will pay the costs of the time he invested in the patent process and perhaps a little pin money that he can use towards a tool that HE is fanatic about – perhaps some new CNC stuff?

That he chose to share his discovery with the rest of us at no charge is a pretty grand gesture on his part, he had no obligation to do so - but we live in a capitalistic system and he chose to limit who could make a profit from his idea. I for one am very grateful for this and will be the first to admit that it has made a huge impact on my work. Simple as that.


Brian P. Marshall
Stockton Jewelry Arts School
Stockton, CA USA
209-477-0550
instructor@jewelryartschool.com

[Marcus Hunt]

Very eloquently put Brian, thanks for the explanation of the patent issues.....I'm not going to get drawn into anymore discussion on it though......if you catch my drift.

Someone once explained to me that the world is like a bucket of water and a person like a hand that when placed in the water can stir it up, cause tumolts and waves. When the hand is removed the waters calmly move back into place, still.....as if we'd never been there.

I do like to think though that as engravers we leave something behind for future generations to enjoy. Is this arrogant? I hope not, just hopeful.

[microengraver]

As Brian has said this is not a dangerous place to post opinions and ask questions?.here goes??

I am afraid I have alienated some on these forums by my abrupt manner and lack of writing skill. This is not my intention but rather my shortcomings. I am open to questions and would like to be able to offer help to other engravers in some manner where possible. I never had any help or advice learning this art and would have loved some of the advice I see here and on other engraving sites in the beginning of my career. I am a professional member of fega, a certified, more or less retired watchmaker and a full time engraver. My chosen area of engraving is a particular watch that is quite suited to the miniature engraving that I do.

I would like to say a few things about the tool wars that went on here. It is too bad the thread was deleted; even heated discussions have their benefits. The following may be a little late but I feel needs to be said.

Tool wars do no one any good. As Marcus stated it is not the tool but rather the man behind the tool that makes the difference. All of the tools wether it be push, hammer and chisel, grs or lindsays all have their up and downsides, and their places in engraving.

As Marcus also stated there is truly great and also very low class engraving coming out using all of the above methods.

What counts, in my opinion, is the years of hard work, diligent study, and a complete dedication to the art form that will eventually, hopefully, make one an engraver of worth. If you think you are going to become Michael Angelo overnight because of a tool, you are quite frankly mistaken. They all take years of practice with to make the hand do as the brain wishes.

Use whatever tools that you like and work for you in whatever engraving endeavors you might pursue. Never be afraid to experiment with something that you think might work, just because someone else did not suggest it does not mean it wont work for you.
Not all things will work for all people, so glean what you can use and toss the rest. These forums are a wealth of information not only for an up and coming engraver but also for those of us that have been at it many years?It is not true that you can not teach and old dog new tricks, the old dog just needs a bone to make him pay attention!

I for one enjoy the info that is disseminated here and on other forums and would hate to see them become battle grounds.

Thanks for a great forum and thanks for listening to my 2 cents worth.

j.c.

[peterinct]

I did just make a graver today using Steve Lindsay's patented grind. I had been using the GRS technigue and watched Sam Alfano's DVD previously. I had experienced heel drag with those grinds going around tight curves. I noticed a distinct improvement.

I went with 35 degree relief angles as I made a 100 degree graver. 50 degree face with a 17.5 loft on the heel. It cut very smoothly around tight curves.

When I encountered the patent and requirement to agree to terms I just had figured Steve was protecting his interests. Not having my own business, I hadn't considered all the legal aspects that could potentially occur.

Again I thank everyone for the welcome, the wealth of information and fine engraving I am experiencing on the forums.

Peter

[Tim Adlam]

Thank you all for saying your piece, and also to those that welcomed Peter to this forum.

To Steve Ellsworth

For the record, Steve Lindsay does not have complete copies of the deleted thread that warranted this post,
nor does he have access to them.
Jim Small, myself, and Alex have the ability to permanently delete or restore what was written.

This next statement by you troubles me because it seems out of character for you.

You know Tim Memorial day is not a good time to screw with a Nam vet as Marcus found out. Neither is the rest of the week.

Earlier I had written a reply to you which i decided not to post becasue I don't feel the need to rip you up over your comments about my manhood. I been places you haven't and I have put people in the dirt for far less so let's just stay on the topic and leave the penis envy crap alone shall we. I think it would be a wise choice.

Mr. Ellsworth,
My intention was not to belittle your manhood, I simply made a statement about one of my beliefs of personal conduct I admire in others.
I have no issue with you but the escalating situation on your self-deleted thread.
And more importantly, the negation of a members first post, including those contributions by the membership.

You anticipated that I'd impress this to a point, so I won't disappoint you there.

I'm not offended by your statement towards me, but rather I wish to make it clear to you that threatening conduct on this board
will not be tolerated towards the moderators and forum participants.
Believe me sir, we've banned people into the dirt for less than this.

The concensus is to ban you now.

I give you a choice, and one chance.
You clean up your act and refrain from personal threats, or you get banned.

If you wish to stay with this community, no harm was done but a failure to communicate.
Should you continue to challenge me...or this policy, I will send you packing.

It's your decision to make Steve, and please make it a thoughtful one.

Tim

[Marcus Hunt]

Peter, there is no doubt whatsover that this grind of Steve's is great.

As I said in the deleted thread, before I started using a powerhone, depending on the graver I would naturally put a relief facet on because I used to sharpen from the bottom up. It worked, my father showed me how he set his tools up and he'd based his technique around some Italian setups he'd seen in turn.

I took on a power hone because of you Yanks, I could see how well your shading was done, and I thought to myself that I didn't want to play catchup so I needed to think about retooling. Plus, for me graver sharpening has always been a bit hit and miss because of the wear on the whet stone causing variables. The PowerHone is a great tool and I messed about a bit when I first got it and did come up with a relieved grind that worked. However, SL's point is simpler and works well. I'll say it again......Thanks Steve for sharing your knowlege with us.

Marcus