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The Newbies Arena Are you new to knife making? Here is all the help you will need.

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  #16  
Old 11-04-2015, 12:29 PM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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With enough practice and the right hammer you could make it wider but it will also lengthen at least a little. That process is bound to make it thinner and by the time you clean it up it would be thinner still.

The only real hope you have of making it wider without getting paper thin is to re-stack it ....


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  #17  
Old 11-04-2015, 12:46 PM
dtec1 dtec1 is offline
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thats what i thought....since i added that extra 15n20 and 1080 i will have enough for a blade...well i think as long as i dont start messing with it to much hopefully stacking it again wont cause a problem i am going to simply stack and shape to a blade.........ray..that 2nd issue you said i might run into if i take this steel to a blade... does it matter if i forge the blade shape or stockremoval on the end billet? i was thinking about forgeing the general shape and ginding down the bevel's and all that...seem ok?
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  #18  
Old 11-04-2015, 01:19 PM
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Either way is fine, won't affect that second issue. The second issue is the possibility of inclusions or cold shuts. Only cutting into the billet - as in shaping the blade and cleaning/shaping it to a finished blade - will tell you with certainty whether or not you have this issue ...


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  #19  
Old 11-04-2015, 02:48 PM
dtec1 dtec1 is offline
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taking a break.....i had thought about that ....i noticed when i was cleaning it up (after twisting and flatening back down) that there were a few "cracks" thats what your talking about right? all the ones i saw (not saying there aint more inside) were very faint i wouldnt have even noticed them except i was working right underneath a big florescent light. they were very shallow quick pass with the grinding wheel they were gone....i stacked them again and got it about halfway to where i need it. when flux is on the steel does it produce more slag and more steel loss than if there was no flux?
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  #20  
Old 11-04-2015, 03:53 PM
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Possibly cracks, a cold shut is a seam that gets pinched shut but doesn't weld. Looks welded but isn't, can reveal a hole when you grind into it. Mostly though, I mean inclusions...that's where you trap bits of flux or scale as you fold and weld the layers together. The more you fold, weld, twist or otherwise try to manipulate to create pattern the more opportunity you have to trap some crap inside the steel. One fair sized bit like that in the wrong place can ruin the whole blade. So can a bunch of little pin sized holes. But, you wouldn't see any of this until you grind the blade.

Flux cleans and protects the steel while it is on there. The trick is to get it out of the way when you're trying to weld.

We tell newbies to postpone trying to make damascus until they have forged and finished a fair number of knives. The reason for that is if they try too soon they can get frustrated and quit knife making altogether. I figure you're frustrated by now but I doubt you'll quit. But, if you're smart, you might see the wisdom of putting aside the damascus for now and concentrating on developing your forging and heat treating skills so that you have a proper basis for learning to make damascus ...


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  #21  
Old 11-04-2015, 04:53 PM
dtec1 dtec1 is offline
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yeh deffinitly fustrated but i enjoy it from a kid collected knives.....swords..learn how to sharpen with flat stones....this was the next obvious progression...fustration doesnt bother me a bit as long as i learn something to change the next time and belive me lets just say i have had a very checkered past with ALOT of fustrastion. any way i think the flux played a lil bit of a part in the steel loss i had hmm forget a puddle i had a olympic size pool on the floor so it was constantly sitting in it. this time i took a piece of a soft firebrick cut 2 pieces just tall enough put em in the forge and layed the steel on it. i think i got the flame a lil better too there was very very little slag i almost thought i was doing something wrong like night and day from before. i drew it out and widened it a bit and it will be decent size for a nice lil fixed blade knife or well the blade anyway its deffinitly not long enought to make a tang to and i had trouble trying to pull out a thin piece to make the tang so i am going to have to think about that this any ideas?
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  #22  
Old 11-04-2015, 04:56 PM
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Use a welding rig to weld on a tang - commonly done with damascus blades.......


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  #23  
Old 11-04-2015, 06:26 PM
dtec1 dtec1 is offline
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ok thats the only way i could think of too...so ray i am frustrated again lol....so i cleaned it up and decided to etch just to see what i have and its nothing well not nothing but no pattern that for sure i dont know how to explain it most of it was dark with a few spots here and there a lil lighter colord blended real well no distinct lines. but no distinct shape, line, pattern. shouldn't there be something? remember when i said that the billet dissapeered to almost nothing. well what i did was flatten out what i had and basicly made it a layer in a new billet adding that extra 15n20 and 1080 i had so i forge welded that and drew it out slightly straped it in a vice and twisted went to flatten. thats when i said it was too long and not wide enough...so stacked, welded and flatten to a size i could cut a blade out of........having that twist before the last stack should have created some sort of pattern right? i dont know i have been messing with this piece of steel for to long. going to just make one from a piece of that 1084 i ordered should have it friday
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  #24  
Old 11-04-2015, 06:49 PM
jmccustomknives jmccustomknives is offline
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Working with Damascus without having experienced forging homogeneous steel is like riding a Harley without learning to ride a bike. Your going to get frustrated because you haven't developed the hammer techniques and control or full understanding of how steel flows under the hammer.
When you learn how to forge and heat treat a blade then you will be ready to take on more complex projects.
That being said, your main problem was you started with too little material. Next time you try pattern welding remember the rule of 3, start with enough steel to make 3 knives and you'll get your one.
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  #25  
Old 11-04-2015, 07:06 PM
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What James said. I have a hydraulic press so that allows me to work much larger billets than you can by hand. I start with 40 layers in a 7 lb billet and work up to about 300 layers. By the time it is all cleaned up into nice flat bars to make knives from I usually have enough for 4 4" knives or a couple of 10" knives.

All I care about is that you said you will now forge a blade from the 1084 you get on Friday. If you do that, we might start to make real progress....


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  #26  
Old 11-04-2015, 07:17 PM
dtec1 dtec1 is offline
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thanks yeh by no means did i think it would be easy and come out perfect i have said it once or twice even in the beginning of this attempt (i think when ray told me i would be better off forging a blade first) "at the very worst it's a learning experience" and iam stubborn as a brick wall wich i did learn some things definitely. i definitely started with enough to make three i think i just had the perfect storm not having the best atmosphere, maybe to much flux getting on the steel constantly, maybe not being able to do the work quick enough so needing to many heats. i dont think i got it perfect but last part i did i picked the steel outa the pool of flux on forge floor and adjusted the flame ....once i did this it amazed me how little slag came off and in turn it didnt shrink like before. JM reading between lines of your post (maybe right maybe not?) do you think my hammering to manipulate the steel could have ruined the pattern as the steel gets flatter? it makes a lil sense in my head but i aint sure
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  #27  
Old 11-04-2015, 07:21 PM
dtec1 dtec1 is offline
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Ray as i said in previous post i am extremely stubborn gets me in trouble all the time...but i have learned to learn from it now. i learned a bunch of things. one being i tried,it didnt work, time to go back and try something a lil more basic and hopefully learn from that too. i am sure you would agree
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  #28  
Old 11-04-2015, 07:44 PM
jmccustomknives jmccustomknives is offline
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The hammering won't ruin the pattern. Taking it too thin, narrow caused you problems. Since you are hand forging, try this. Start with 6" strips 1" wide with enough layers to make 1". Do your weld then forge the billet to 1x1/2x 9". Fold it in half. Repeat 4 times. Keep your strikes level with the anvil top or the billet will begin to trapizoid. On the final forging then take it down to knife blade thin ( about 20% thicker than you want your blade). Doing it this way reduces the surface area and loss of material. Leaving the final forging thick gives you plenty of material to remove all the hammer marks you will end up with.

I'm not sure why you aren't getting any pattern. I have had to many layers, that caused problems but they were overcome. What is your etchant?
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  #29  
Old 11-05-2015, 06:04 AM
dtec1 dtec1 is offline
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i just ordered some steel i think i am going to mess with 1084 but also got more 15n20 bot are 1.5 wide should i leave like that or cut to a inch? i was using the ferric chloride the stuff from radio shack pcb i think
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  #30  
Old 11-05-2015, 08:30 AM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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You may be learning from your efforts at making damascus but you are learning more slowly than you have to because you are having to work out for yourself under more difficult conditions some things that you would already know if you had worked plain steel for a while. I think you should just put aside the damascus making entirely right now and concentrate on learning to shape and properly heat treat a blade. Once you have that down many of the issues you have with damascus and forge temperature/conditions will disappear.

Your self-flagellating approach to making damascus may suit you but it is very hard on the rest of us. So, if you need help with making, finishing, and testing a plain steel knife I will be more than happy to assist and once you have a few of those under your belt we can look at damascus again. There is certainly more than one way to do things and you can eventually learn to make damascus this way but this is the long way around....


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