Help Narrow my Choice Please

[gfhoward]

OK I'm starting to get serious about my next studio camera. I prefer advanced compacts to SLR's because 1) I can frame using the LCD instead of squinting into a viewfinder and 2) They come with built-in macro mode. How much quality am I losing by choosing an advanced compact over an SLR? Looking on dpreview, it looks like image quality is the same. Only main difference I really see is that an SLR has a bigger image sensor (what does that mean/do, and is it important?) and with an SLR you can still get good shots over 200 ISO (up to 1,600 ISO)--again, why does this matter and should I care? Does the ability to shoot at a higher ISO give me better pictures in lower light?

The two I've been eyeing are the Digilux and the Lumix. Any thoughts on these or what might be better? How useful is wide-angle lens for knife pics?

[gfhoward]

Is there a place I can go to actually get some help with these questions--another forum ya'll can recommend maybe?

[gfhoward]

How about Canon G6 vs Panasonic DMC-FZ20 or 30 vs The latest Canon Powershot vs the Digital Rebel XT for knife shots?

[Andy S]

I think the reason you are not seeing too many replies is because most of the members on this forum are not terribly familiar with the unlimited number of point and shoot type cameras now available. It has been the general consensus here that the SLRs with lots of manual control are much better suited to the type of photography we do here. This is not to say that the cameras you mentioned are not capable of taking great knife photos. They just aren't as practical for the day in day out studio work that is knife photgraphy. One of the biggest problems I have seen with the point and shoot cameras is the dismal manual focusing setup and ability to set the white balance. The lack of an LCD viewing screen on a camera is not that big of a tradeoff to me. I used to use a Nikon 990 years ago and it was a pain to setup. Those brands that you mentioned are very good manufacturers and you may get what you need from them. But a good photographer can generally cajole a decent photgraph out of most any camera really.

Too answer some of your other questions.....
bigger image sensor...generally gives a smoother image overall. If you will be shrinking the image for the web or for most publications it shouldn't matter.
higher ISO...in a studio setting you shouldn't need to run at a higher ISO...just use more light. The lowest ISO gives the best image quality.
wide-angle lens...unecessary in knife photgraphy...to use a wide angle you would have to be very close to the subject and it would distort the image far too much.

I think the majority of the members here are using Canon or Nikon SLRs. I personally use a Canon Digital Rebel and have found it to be quite good. It is the bottom of the price range for digital SLRs but that doesn't make it inferior. A lot comes down to your studio lighting arrangement. It will affect the quality of your photos more than any other factor.

Hope this is of some help.

[Osprey Guy]

As has been demonstrated here time and time again, you don't have to have a SLR in order to take decent knife shots. You can certainly get great knife shots with a good P&S...and the proper lighting and technique...and a little post production skills wouldn't hurt.

I used to have a Nikon 8700 and after one year I decide to go for a simpler, more user friendly P&S. I had learned that I just don't have the time or inclination to devote a lot of energy into my photography (I put enough time into hobbies as it is)...and I wanted something that could pull double duty...that would be good for my knife shots and good for all my other needs as well. As always, I did a ton of research (at least a couple of hours per night for over a week researching every online review and photography forum I could find)... and I wound up with the new Canon Powershot A620. (FYI- the Nikon 8700 is not an SLR either...but about as close as you're gonna get and still technically be a P&S)

You can see my comments about the A620 in this thread:
http://www.knifenetwork.com/forum/sh...ad.php?t=33360

Bottom line...Great camera, easy to use full manual focus ability, easy-to-use pre-white balance, same lens and features as the older, much more expenive G6...and because it's so intuitive, in 1 week of owning the A620 I learned more about photography than in a year with the "higher end" camera.

I'm not knocking SLR's.... on the contrary. I just don't think they're for everybody...and it's defintely not a requirement to achieve halfway decent knife images.

Hope that helps...


Dennis Greenbaum

[gfhoward]

Thanks, very helpful! Andy: Soooo, if an advanced P&S can focus well, set white balance well, and has full manual controls, what exactly is the advantage you speak of that leads forum members here to a consensus that SLR's are better?

I'll buy an SLR if it really is better for knife photography, but so far I haven't heard any reason as to how an SLR is actually better, and I know it has some drawbacks such as no Macro ability except with a special lens, and no LCD framing, which I like.

[Osprey Guy]

Before you try and get an answer to the question of P&S vs SLR...all you have to do is go to any photography forum/website, or pickup any photo magazine and you'll see that there's no clear winner in that debate. There are those who will insist that SLR's are the only way to go...and there are plenty of SLR users who are comfortable with the idea that the P&S cameras have their place in the world of good photography as well.

I mentioned my last camera, the Nikon 8700. Although I never got comfortable with it, the 8700 is tecnically a very high end P&S. My partner David Darom owns an 8700...swears by it (he's the one who convinced me to buy mine last year). Half the shots in his 1st and 2nd knife books were shot with his 8700. David also owns a small, pocket-size P&S...I believe it's a 5 mg Canon Elph (I'm pretty sure that's the model he has). And more than a few of the knives shown in his 2nd book on fixed blades were shot "on the go" with that camera while David was attending knife shows. Coop uses an 8700 as a backup camera. The point is that many first rate knife photos have been shot with P7S cameras....(Somewhere around here is a wonderful knife photo posted by Coop, that was taken with an older 2 mg Olympus 2020...I can't recall the photographer...it was a famous knifemaker).

Will a SLR guarantee better knife photos??...no way. But from what I have read and learned, if you really know what you're doing, in the long run you're probably gonna be able to reach higher heights in photography with an SLR, and all the various choices it offers. But if you're like me and have no particular aspirations of being the next great knife photographer, and if you want a camera for more than just knife photos, and if you don't want to drop four figures on camera equipment, then a P&S is the way to go.

Anyway, that's my conclusion...


Dennis Greenbaum

PS. I'm about 1 1/2-2 weeks away from finishing up a new knife. In the meantime I've been gearing up for the imminent photo session with the new knife, new camera, etc... I loaded up on 135 watt daylight fluorescents (just in at Walmart). I'm just about finished building a new light tent... and I've purchased a boatload of cool background sheets. Let's see what I can do with my trusty new P&S Canon...

[Andy S]

Hi Dennis,
Well I certainly didn't mean to rile anyone up. It really comes down to personal preferance. One of the other things I like about the SLRs is the ability to fire external flashes. While many on this forum use constant lights such as tungstan bulbs and fluorescent bulbs I prefer using a studio flash. I find that it is easier to color balance a flash shot. That and the ability to shoot without a tripod.They also don't generate a lot of heat an are less bulky. I used to use a 600 watt spot light as my main light....it was like a furnace. Granted the fluorescents don't have this problem. Most of the the SLRs have a pc socket for an extenal flash which is rare I believe on the P&S cams. I think many people feel the studio flash units are out of reach$ but simple ones sell on Ebay for well under $100 with a built in modeling light.
Just my opinion...... only jumped in on this thread because no one else was responding to the original post and I hate to see someone's question left unanswered.

[tmickley]

The pro's here have learned to avoid this kind of discussion. I should too but I'm entitled to be wrong just like anyone else.
Generally, SLR's have been the choice of professionals for at least the last 50 years for a variety of reasons. Large format cameras are still in use and arguably take the highest quality pictures but SLR's rule the world right now. Industry has supported this and the best technology is currently lavished on the digital SLR. From internal software and sensors to lenses and accessories, the best stuff is SLR format. Point and shoots are geared for a different market but like Dennis states, are capable of taking very good pictures. Can non-SLR's eventually surpass SLR's? Absolutely and they probably should. A mirror slamming up to it's stop, out of the way for every picture is bound to be improved on. Currently the little LCD on the back of a non-slr is not as good a focusing image as looking through the SLR viewfinder. Until the LCD viewer surpasses or at least equals the optical viewer, it's probably going to remain SLR as the technically acknowledged superior format.
One last consideration, when shooting a picture, holding a camera to your face to look through the view finder helps steady the shot. With a digital, you are holding it a foot or two away from your face, trying to hold it steady to compose your picture. Much shakier -blurrier. The eye piece viewers on most point and shoots are almost an afterthought in quality and you don't see what you are going to get. When you use a tripod, this isn't an issue but otherwise it is.
I still use my point and shoot. In fact, I'm going to buy another one since they have advanced so much and come down in price so far. My 3meg pixel that is nearing 4 years old still takes great pictures but there are 5meg cameras out there now that will run circles around this one. Hope that helps a little. Good luck.
One last thing, go to www.dpreview.com and look around there.

[gfhoward]

OK awesome guys! A couple more questions: is auto focus on a good P&S about as good as manual focus looking through the viewfinder? I ask becuase my old P&S has never focused well (I always use auto focus) but I thought it was just the camera and not that I was using auto focus.

2) Is being able to go above aperture F8 useful in knife photography? The P&S looks like they go up to 8, and I think SLR's go higher. That might be another reason to go SLR, what do you think?

[Andy S]

Most SLRs are more bulky for most people to want to carry on vacation and such. So if you can only afford one and are not a professional knife photographer then the P&S will service you best but if you can afford the SLR go for it. The bottom line in digital cameras is you get what you pay for. With knife photography I generally don't go below F11 on the aperature and sometimes all the way up to F19. Generally there is less shutter lag on the SLRs and the much less noise because the electronics are usually better. Now if you get into a top of the line Leica point and shoot you will probably get a fantastic camera but again you will pay for it. Professionals can't afford to use anything less than the best but amateurs can get by with less than the best. As far auto focus goes I utilize it even on my SLR.

[Osprey Guy]

I found the thread that I referenced earlier:
http://www.knifenetwork.com/forum/sh...ad.php?t=29611

Scroll down the page and check out the image shot by Dr. Fred Carter using a 2 mg Olympus 2020 (I own the same camera...Used to be able to take decent shots with it until it up'ed and died on me...It was out of warranty so I never did get around to having it fixed). As you can see Fred was making a point, that with the right technique and lighting, you can get a very acceptable knife photo with any reasonably decent camera.


Dennis Greenbaum

[Osprey Guy]

I went back and found the photos of my Rock 'n Roll Typhoon that I shot with that Olympus 2020... Here's one of them. I know it's not a work of art and I'm sure that the more knowledgeable guys here could find all sorts of things wrong with the photo...But it was good enough to be featured in color, across a full page in Blade Magazine.



If I can do at least this well with my new Canon A620 (and I'm quite certain that I can), I'll be quite happy. Anything better will be a "bonus"...


Dennis Greenbaum

[gfhoward]

OK I've narrowed it down to the G6, the Fuji S9000, and the Panasonic DMC-FZ 20, 27 or 30. The last 2 have real manual zoom and focus. How important to ya'll is that? Which of these cameras do you like? Also, what's a good place to buy-- B&H doesn't have much in stock?

[Osprey Guy]

Having been through this before...I'd like to offer a couple of suggestions.

If you have a camera store within reasonable driving distance, it is well worth a trip to be able to handle these cameras in person prior to your purchase. A camera can look real good on paper and in the reviews, but if it's not comfortable in your hand, and not comfortable for you to use, then you'll probably never be happy with your purchase.

And if the price is close enough to the online price, buy it from the local store. You'll greatly appreciate after the purchase, being able to take the camera back to the store where you bought it, where hopefully they'll have someone with knowledge who can help you out. That's what I did with my Canon and I've been back to the store several times now with questions...and they've been very helpful. Much easier than my having to figure it out on my own with only the help of the manual. I might have saved as much as $50 online, but as far as I'm concerned the personal help was well worth the difference!

As for your choices...

The Panasonics are all fantastic cameras...have gotten rave reviews. Anyone of those three Panny's is a whole lot of camera (and fairly sizeable I might add).

The FZ7 (I assume that's what you meant) is a little too plastic feeling for my taste...but it has excellent features for the price. The FZ30 (8 megapixels) is the newer big brother to the FZ20 (5 megs). Both are amazing, and surprisingly easy-to-use-out-of-the-box cameras... But as always, a lot depends on what you want (Keep in mind that they are both fairly large cameras...definitely NOT compact). If you really want to go "heavy duty", but not go the SLR route, than either of those two Panny's are fantastic choices. In fact there's a good chance I would have selected one of those two (I came seriously close to buying the FZ30, but I was determined to get a camera with the fully articulating, swing-out LCD (like the one I had on my Nikon 8700...and the one I now have on my Canon A620...the G6 has that as well...Incredibly useful feature...If you're interested I can explain why). Here's a review of the FZ30: http://www.steves-digicams.com/2005_.../fz30_pg5.html

If it had come with more than 5 megs, I think I would have purchased the new Canon S2IS in a heartbeat. With its swing-out LCD and absolutely loaded with features (and a breeze to use), it is one hell of a nice camera!!! However, even though I know that 5 megs is actually more than enough for most knife photography, I just figured that with all the choices out there...and all things being equal, I might as well get something with more megapixels. Here's a review of this very impressive camera:
http://www.steves-digicams.com/2005_reviews/s2is.html

Regarding the Fuji- I don't recall offhand exactly what is was that bumped the Fuji S9000 early on from my fairly short list of choices...I know there was a lot of interest in that camera when it first came out, but I remember reading more than a few negative comments by folks in the Photography forums....it was negative enough to bump it off fast. I think it had something to do with a crappy menu and questionable macro ability. I do know that there are so many choices in that general category, that there is no need to "settle" for anything. Wish I could be of more help on that one...

As for the G6, I've already said it...the A620 literally has all the features of the much older G6 (almost two years older)....and it has the newer Canon processor. Here's a review of the A620. I think that every reviewer on the planet has said how much he loves the camera: http://www.steves-digicams.com/2005_.../a620_pg7.html

If for some reason you decide that you still want to go with a G6 you can find them very well-priced due to their age. I would think that you could fine one for under $600.

All things considered I can think of few other purchase decisions, that have put me through more angst than my last two camera purchases....Good luck...and try and have fun.

FYI- If you haven't checked out this review site yet, it's one of my personal favorites: http://www.steves-digicams.com/best_cameras.html

...and of course there's the "standard"...dpreview.com http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sidebyside.asp )



Dennis Greenbaum

BTW- After you've checked them out in person, if you do decide to buy online, you might want to consider Buydig.com
I thoroughly researched all the online places back when I bought my Nikon....and Buydig.com was one of the very few online outfits that deeply discounts, and maintains a decent rep. And you're not getting grey market goods from them (like most of the other "NY/NJ online electronic retailers"....Everything comes with full factory warranty (I know this from personal experience). I bought my Nikon from them and saved a bundle!!!!. Excellent and quick service (with all the $$$ I saved, and no taxes, I figured what the heck and paid the extra charge and had them next day the camera to me). My buddy Ron Nott bought his Nikon there as well....same experience.