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The Newbies Arena Are you new to knife making? Here is all the help you will need.

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  #1  
Old 08-25-2015, 06:48 PM
VanceHanna VanceHanna is offline
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Start of First Knife

Here is the start of my first knife, do take into consideration that all i have to cut with is a chop saw and hand cut off disk and that it is made from an old lawn mower blade, all i know is that it is Some form of Carbon Steel(because the blade was covered in surface rust lol) More photos later after my belt sander gets here. Now if someone can tell me how to upload photos im set! lol


Last edited by VanceHanna; 08-25-2015 at 06:58 PM.
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  #2  
Old 08-25-2015, 08:12 PM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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You just need to participate on the forum for a while and then you'll be able to post pictures without Photobucket. I can only see the thumbnails but it looks like some kind of knife. Lawn mower blades are medium carbon steel not the best for knives but its a place to start ...


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  #3  
Old 08-25-2015, 09:55 PM
VanceHanna VanceHanna is offline
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Originally Posted by Ray Rogers View Post
You just need to participate on the forum for a while and then you'll be able to post pictures without Photobucket. I can only see the thumbnails but it looks like some kind of knife. Lawn mower blades are medium carbon steel not the best for knives but its a place to start ...
Got a Photo buck account and posted the photos in a second thread because i cant even see my first post here in this thread anymore
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  #4  
Old 08-26-2015, 08:10 AM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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Just participate for a while and it will straighten out soon. It's something the forum does to prevent spamming...


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  #5  
Old 08-26-2015, 01:40 PM
VanceHanna VanceHanna is offline
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Just participate for a while and it will straighten out soon. It's something the forum does to prevent spamming...
Gotcha, i can see the slideshow in my first post now.
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  #6  
Old 08-26-2015, 10:05 PM
VanceHanna VanceHanna is offline
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So now that I understand what was going on and why, what do yall think of what i have done so far?
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  #7  
Old 08-27-2015, 03:56 AM
VanceHanna VanceHanna is offline
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Also going by the sparking on the grinder it would appear that this steel is some sort of med carbon or high carbon tool steel.
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  #8  
Old 08-27-2015, 06:36 AM
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Crex Crex is offline
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>Also going by the sparking on the grinder it would appear that this steel is some sort of med carbon or high carbon tool steel. <

Sparks - compared to what?
Almost all steels spark when ground. You need a "control" for comparison. A control is a known steel (composition) with a known hardness (heattreatment or state of hardness). The unknown steel needs to be at the same hardness to more accurately determine it's relative composition and even this is very subjective to your mind/eye perception of color and spark array. In other words - sparks without comparative control are just sparks (even rocks spark when ground).

Not trying to dissuade you from trying and doing, but you need to be aware that most mower blades made for "Box Store" mowers are made from less than desirable steel for cutlery. They lowered carbon content to reduce potential brittleness - broken pieces of blades were too great a liability.
Some commercial grade blades are quite excellent steel, but again, you will have to do extensive testing with thermal cycling to determine which are and which are not.

In a nut shell, you will learn quicker and better by using a known steel such as 1084 and getting the basics down solid so that you can consistently produce a quality blade before venturing out into all the other varieties of steels available. Keep your variables down to a minimum until get things worked out.

ps - rust is iron oxide not carbon oxide - all ferrous metals (those containing iron) will rust under certain conditions, even the stainless varieties.

Also fill out your profile, someone here on the forum may live just around the corner and can help you "hands on" get things figured out.


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  #9  
Old 08-28-2015, 02:52 PM
VanceHanna VanceHanna is offline
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Originally Posted by Crex View Post
>Also going by the sparking on the grinder it would appear that this steel is some sort of med carbon or high carbon tool steel. <

Sparks - compared to what?
Almost all steels spark when ground. You need a "control" for comparison. A control is a known steel (composition) with a known hardness (heattreatment or state of hardness). The unknown steel needs to be at the same hardness to more accurately determine it's relative composition and even this is very subjective to your mind/eye perception of color and spark array. In other words - sparks without comparative control are just sparks (even rocks spark when ground).

Not trying to dissuade you from trying and doing, but you need to be aware that most mower blades made for "Box Store" mowers are made from less than desirable steel for cutlery. They lowered carbon content to reduce potential brittleness - broken pieces of blades were too great a liability.
Some commercial grade blades are quite excellent steel, but again, you will have to do extensive testing with thermal cycling to determine which are and which are not.

In a nut shell, you will learn quicker and better by using a known steel such as 1084 and getting the basics down solid so that you can consistently produce a quality blade before venturing out into all the other varieties of steels available. Keep your variables down to a minimum until get things worked out.

ps - rust is iron oxide not carbon oxide - all ferrous metals (those containing iron) will rust under certain conditions, even the stainless varieties.

Also fill out your profile, someone here on the forum may live just around the corner and can help you "hands on" get things figured out.

Sparks- Compared to Photos i found online of what the spark patterns of different steels look like.

No offense, but when i buy my first steel even if its 1084 I want my skills to be at least at an Intermediate level.I dont want to waste money on steel to practice when i have a crap load of used lawnmower blades. I cant see Paying to practice when i have steel i can practice on free, even if the steel is junk its still steel and free beats steel i have to buy every time lol

As to your PS, I am well aware that it is Iron Oxide, what i said was i know its some kind of carbon steel because it rusted meaning its not some form of stainless steel sorry if i caused confusion.
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  #10  
Old 08-29-2015, 06:26 AM
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Crex Crex is offline
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I think you may be missing the point - You may be able to get reasonably close at guessing a steels composition from spark testing - with a lot of experience at reading sparks and colors in a controlled environment. However, it is still a comparison based on your developed skills, color perception, and experience. Variables: lighting, pressure, type of grinding device and abrasive composition, condition of steel as far as surface prep and hardness, etc. All of these being subjective, in other words - how you perceive them at any given time and place. Plus you are comparing them based on pictures/videos someone else has posted under unknown conditions.

You will not likely reach "intermediate level" with mystery steels and personal subjective means of evaluation. Simply, you can put a lot of hours and effort into bad practice and get poor/questionable results. Or... you can use known materials and proven techniques to produce serious product and learn solid good basic skills with the same efforts and be much further along in the learning curve.

Practice does not make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect.

Side note: Stainless is stain-less, not rust proof. Anything with iron in it will rust at some point.


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  #11  
Old 08-29-2015, 07:49 AM
jmccustomknives jmccustomknives is offline
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What Crex says is true. If you put a piece of L-6 or 15N20 on a grinder it might confuse you. Steels with lots of alloy can spark differently than simple carbon steels with the same carbon content. I once had some high alloy band saw that almost sparked like wrought iron. Those test are subjective. After using the test the next step in working with the "mystery" steel would be to take a portion, heat it and water quench. Then break it. If it breaks clean and has a good grain then proceed to the next step of making a test knife. Note, mystery steels can take some time to work out the heat treat so if you intend to work with them be advised to have a lot of it. It took me several knives before I worked out the heat treat on some large circular saw mill blades.
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  #12  
Old 08-29-2015, 10:00 AM
VanceHanna VanceHanna is offline
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Originally Posted by jmccustomknives View Post
What Crex says is true. If you put a piece of L-6 or 15N20 on a grinder it might confuse you. Steels with lots of alloy can spark differently than simple carbon steels with the same carbon content. I once had some high alloy band saw that almost sparked like wrought iron. Those test are subjective. After using the test the next step in working with the "mystery" steel would be to take a portion, heat it and water quench. Then break it. If it breaks clean and has a good grain then proceed to the next step of making a test knife. Note, mystery steels can take some time to work out the heat treat so if you intend to work with them be advised to have a lot of it. It took me several knives before I worked out the heat treat on some large circular saw mill blades.

Thanks!
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  #13  
Old 08-29-2015, 10:02 AM
VanceHanna VanceHanna is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crex View Post
I think you may be missing the point - You may be able to get reasonably close at guessing a steels composition from spark testing - with a lot of experience at reading sparks and colors in a controlled environment. However, it is still a comparison based on your developed skills, color perception, and experience. Variables: lighting, pressure, type of grinding device and abrasive composition, condition of steel as far as surface prep and hardness, etc. All of these being subjective, in other words - how you perceive them at any given time and place. Plus you are comparing them based on pictures/videos someone else has posted under unknown conditions.

You will not likely reach "intermediate level" with mystery steels and personal subjective means of evaluation. Simply, you can put a lot of hours and effort into bad practice and get poor/questionable results. Or... you can use known materials and proven techniques to produce serious product and learn solid good basic skills with the same efforts and be much further along in the learning curve.

Practice does not make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect.

Side note: Stainless is stain-less, not rust proof. Anything with iron in it will rust at some point.


How bout practicing on 15N20? That one i can get cheap enough that i wouldn't mind losing some to ruining a knife.
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  #14  
Old 08-29-2015, 10:49 AM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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Knife making is an expensive hobby, better get used to wasting some supplies. You can use 15N20 if you can get it in thick enough pieces, mostly all I ever see are 1/16 thick. That's good for a fillet knife but not much else (except for damascus making which is mostly what we use it for). If you are concerned about wasting 1084 then work slowly and follow instructions carefully. You will still waste some - we all do even after years of practice - but not much and as time goes on you may learn ways to recyle what you thought was wasted . If you are serious about learning to make knives then be serious and do it right. If not, its perfectly OK to grind a knife like object out of any material you like just for fun or to pass the time but we can't be much help with that ....


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  #15  
Old 08-29-2015, 03:10 PM
VanceHanna VanceHanna is offline
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Originally Posted by Ray Rogers View Post
Knife making is an expensive hobby, better get used to wasting some supplies. You can use 15N20 if you can get it in thick enough pieces, mostly all I ever see are 1/16 thick. That's good for a fillet knife but not much else (except for damascus making which is mostly what we use it for). If you are concerned about wasting 1084 then work slowly and follow instructions carefully. You will still waste some - we all do even after years of practice - but not much and as time goes on you may learn ways to recyle what you thought was wasted . If you are serious about learning to make knives then be serious and do it right. If not, its perfectly OK to grind a knife like object out of any material you like just for fun or to pass the time but we can't be much help with that ....

How bout 5160?
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