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  #16  
Old 02-05-2002, 08:44 AM
blckbear
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Re: Has anyone developed a method of stabilizing wood (in ho


The lights are starting to dim up..... and things are starting to look a little clearer. 8o

Just like everything else we do, practice and experimentation is the key.

Thanks Gene
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  #17  
Old 02-18-2002, 07:23 AM
s mcfall
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Re: Has anyone developed a method of stabilizing wood (in ho


has anyone used the methyl methacylate, i guess this is the stuff the commercial people use. i have thought about trying this stuff but would want to make sure before i go out and send a 100.00 on it first, i also have talked to Curtis Wilson and he uses this stuff also...so anyone else out there tried this?
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  #18  
Old 02-19-2002, 09:43 AM
Bill Foote
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Re: Has anyone developed a method of stabilizing wood (in ho


Stan, I did a little research on MMC. It's basically plexiglass or lucite in liquid form, very low viscousity. Sounds promising. I did a search for MMC and wood stabilizing and found one of the pros uses it for woodwinds. Curtis knows his stuff, too.
I found 4 liters for $62.00 at Capitol Scientific in Austin and have ordered it. Safety hazards apply here, read the MSDS:
www.jtbaker.com/msds/m5616.htm
flammability, polymerization triggered by sunlight or elevated temperature, etc.
I still send my good stuff out, but love to experiment. Again, read the MSDS and consider the elevated risk of flammability when pumping a liquid down.
I'll contact Curtis for any "gotchas" and post if significant.
Thanks, Stan. The Minwax wood hardener just wasn't giving me the quality I wanted.
Bill
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  #19  
Old 02-19-2002, 11:38 AM
s mcfall
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Re: Has anyone developed a method of stabilizing wood (in ho


Bill, please keep me posted on how it works out for you,
iam very interested in the outcome.

stan
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  #20  
Old 02-19-2002, 12:52 PM
moldy Jim
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Re: Has anyone developed a method of stabilizing wood (in ho


If I may make a suggestion, I would say a better method might be to place the dry wood in an Empty vacuum chamber.
Do not put the stabilizer in before you draw the vacuum.

Draw as high a vacuum as possible for a time, (overnight , 24 hours whatever is approiate for the state of the wood) release the vacuum thru an air dryer/moisture trap.

Re-vacuum to remove the residual moisture that condensed in the chamber the first time the vacuum was released.

Now, after soaking again in the vacuum, (or unsoaking for want of a better a better term) allow the vacuum to pull the stabilizing material into the chamber instead of air.

That way the liquid is pulled into the wood without having the solvents boiled off. The pressure of the stabilizer entering the chamber will force it deeper into the wood due to the porosity of the wood being still at a lower pressure than the liquid..

Once the liquid has filled the chamber at least enough to cover the wood, pressurize the vessel as high as you can safely.

So now you have a piece of wood completely dry, the air removed, the air replaced with a stabilizing material at a higher pressure than the wood, and then the whole thing put under even more pressure.

If the stabilizer is a catalyst type hardening material you just need to wait for the goo to kick off and you're ready to remove the hardened blocks inside your resin.

But if you are using a material that needs to dry, then you will want to release the pressure very slowly to prevent any trapped air pressure/dissolved gas from pushing the goo back out.
Some oils/materials will hold gas like carbonation in soda water, so you will want to allow the pressure to decline very slowly or the wood will fiss and bubble and all the work will be for naught.

But if it's done calmly and methodically it should give you good results just don't rush it.
(Do like I say, not as I do!)

Jim
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  #21  
Old 02-19-2002, 02:55 PM
Geno
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Re: Has anyone developed a method of stabilizing wood (in ho


Thanks Jim, That was a very good explaination.

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  #22  
Old 02-19-2002, 03:20 PM
Bill Foote
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Re: Has anyone developed a method of stabilizing wood (in ho


Jim, very good point. As Geno said before, the importance of evacuating the chamber to rid the wood of moisture is evident.
Even my 50 year old wood in the atmospheric moisture of Austin could prohibit the absortion af any stabilizer.
So, let it pump down for a long time to rid the wood of all moisture.
Your idea of adding the stabilzer while in rough vac is interesting. Ordinarily you would vent, add stabilizer, and repump. By maintaining vacuum while adding stabilizer you won't have to displace the new air, which may get trapped. anyway.
To accomplish this would be easier than I first imagined.
My configuration now is pump, foam containment jar (which is empty to contain the foam before it contaminates the pump), vacuum chamber. To add the stabilizer while under vac, it would require a third chamber, the stabilizer, with a bottom tube and a valve between the wood stabilizing chamber and the stabilizer container. When the wood Stabilization chamber is at about 25" vacuum, you slowly open the jar containing the stabilizing medium. Once it's filled the middle jar, close it.
Maintain vacuum with pump on intermittently watching the gauge. Don't let it reach atmosphere for 3 days.
I don't know how to administer high pressure without reversing the flow of My vacuum pump, but that may work.

Watcha think??


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  #23  
Old 02-20-2002, 09:17 AM
blckbear
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Re: Has anyone developed a method of stabilizing wood (in ho


OK, my question is that instead of completely submerging the wood, standing the wood on end and only leave a small piece of the end out of the stabalizing liquid. Being that water and air is lighter than the liquid it should escape that way.... right? The path of least resistance.

Mike
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  #24  
Old 02-20-2002, 12:42 PM
moldy Jim
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Re: Has anyone developed a method of stabilizing wood (in ho


Bill,
Good point about the separating filter in line before the pump, ("the foam jar") I missed mentioning that important part.

The way I have my chamber set up is with a valve right on the chamber, and a piece of tubing that will come off the fitting from the vacuum pump.

I draw the vacuum, close the valve, pop the tube off the pump and place it in the can of solution.

When the valve is opened the vacuum suctions the solution into the pot.

Then I connect the tube to a pressure pump and pressurize the whole shebang.

I believe it's the difference in pressure between the wood cells and the solution that forces the goo into the wood.

Holding the solution under vacuum seems to me to be counter productive.

If you draw the air out of the wood ahead of time why would you need to keep the goo under vacuum?

All that would do is draw out the volatiles from the goo, thus making it thicker. That is the opposite of what you want at this point.

After the wood has absorbed the goo, then you want the volatiles to escape slowly. Otherwise the wood might crack or check.
Another problem would be for the surface to form a "skin" holding the solvents inside the wood and preventing the wood from drying completely.

I should probably mention, this is just one method and theory, I'm sure there are other methods that work just as well if not better. But with the equipment I have it works well.

Blackbear,

That is one way, but I feel that the difference between water, vapor and oil/fumes while in vacuum wouldn't be enough to make a difference, but the capillary action of the wood is part of the equation. But seeing as how if, you don't use a vacuum on it, you can re-use the oil until it's gone why not cover the wood?

I like to cut the wood so that the grain is cut on a angle to expose as much of the end grain as possible. That way the wood can suck up as much of the goo as it can.

One thing that I do really like is how spalted wood REALLY soaks up the oil, and shows real interesting grain and colors.

Jim


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  #25  
Old 02-20-2002, 11:00 PM
Bill Foote
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Re: Has anyone developed a method of stabilizing wood (in ho


I'll try the pressurizing. Instead of a seperate pressurizing pump, how 'bout diverting the input/output of the vac pump with a two way valve.One for evacuation, one for pressurization. I've got a Gast two stage I'm gonna do that to when I get the MMC. Should just take inexpenxsive Home Depot valves.
You mentioned prolonged evacuation could cause the solution to thicken, an interesting point. Without a solvent mixed with the MMC I would doubt that to be a problem. If solvents such as acetone, etc. were involved, they would vaporize before the monomer, but there is none in MMC.
I can't wait to try this when my bottle of MMC arrives.
You think we're getting carried away here folks?, check how the pros do dino bones....
www.nottingham.ac.uk/pathology/protocols/resbonecut.html
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  #26  
Old 02-22-2002, 12:10 PM
moldy Jim
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Re: Has anyone developed a method of stabilizing wood (in ho


Bill, I tried hooking up the exhaust side of my vacuum pump but it wouldn't work. It just made funny noises. I quit really quick. Don't know why it didn't work, but I wasn't willing to risk my pump.
Now I use a bicycle pump for pressure, it's amazing how fast you can develop high pressure with a good pump.
Jim
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  #27  
Old 02-22-2002, 01:22 PM
Bill Foote
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Re: Has anyone developed a method of stabilizing wood (in ho


The chemical supply house called to say my four litre bottle of methyl methacrylate has arrived. I'm gonna stabilize some wood today the way you mentioned, Jim. Pump it out first, then add the MMC, I like that method.
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  #28  
Old 02-22-2002, 03:19 PM
JossDelage
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Re: Has anyone developed a method of stabilizing wood (in ho


There's a low tech approach on Don Fogg's site at www.dfoggknives.com/ShopTips%208.htm. It's from Randal Graham. He says:

"Know what preserve jars are? lockable top ones like grandma pickled stuff in, made all that great jam and stuff...anyway, clear Thompson's Water Seal, or colored variations if you are brave, warm it up in the jar, in a double boiler set-up, till it's really hot... put the bone handle section in, and seal it.

Put it on a shelf for a month or two, longer if you want, you can let them sit for quite a while if need be, or not in a rush. When you take it out to use it, warm it in an oven at around 150f to dry it out, and let it cool slow in the oven. 15 to 30 min ought to do it.

or...

Rig up a way to put a container in some kind of set-up that will allow you to pull 12 or 15 inches of vacuum... put the bone in the Thompson's, seal the rig and pull a vacuum for 15 minutes, let it off for 15, and repeat the cycle three or four times, then do the same dry-out routine.

Lazy in-a-hurry time-is-everything method. Soak it in acetone for 5 or 10 minutes, then massage a good 24 hour epoxy into all surfaces with your fingers, wearing surgical gloves... after it sets you can rub it down a bit with superfine steel wool or 600-800 grit paper with water, and polish it."


JD
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  #29  
Old 02-22-2002, 03:36 PM
Bill Foote
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Re: Has anyone developed a method of stabilizing wood (in ho


I pumped down the wood for a while, then introduced the MMC. I'm pulling 25" with two stage Gast pump. It's been foaming for an hour. The MMC doesn't cause foam overflow into the collection jar like other agents I've used. I'll let it pump until I can't see any more air bubbles coming out. I hope this is the stuff, because now I've got four liters of it.
It's flammability rating of three makes me nervous, but I'm doing it outside of course, and using a diaghram pump.
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  #30  
Old 02-22-2002, 06:13 PM
Bill Foote
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Re: Has anyone developed a method of stabilizing wood (in ho


Several hours of pumping now. I found a leak with a stethoscope and sprayed 3m Super 77 on leaking fitting. Now I'm at 30" vac! The spalted maple is still giving off small bubbles, so I'll let it go several more hours.
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