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The Newbies Arena Are you new to knife making? Here is all the help you will need.

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  #1  
Old 08-05-2012, 08:30 PM
caspertheghost caspertheghost is offline
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Cool My first file knife

Hey guys, this is my first post here, and this here is my first (and second) knife I've ever made. I've modified knives before and even reground a knife I found rusted to #### stuck in a tree in the woods but this is my first time doing anything like this.
So my first one turned out great, I annealed a 8" Nicholson handy mill file in a charcoal barbeque assisted with a hairdyer blowing in the bottom.



I cut it to shape with about thirteen 1" cut off blades supplied with my dremel knock off, each one snapping or being ground down after just a few millimeters of cutting. I ground the tanto tip down pretty well with a file, then did the rest with a handheld 3x21" belt sander. I turn it upside down onto an upside down bucket and held the trigger down with one hand and grind the blade with the other. I used 40 grit and finished it off with 80 grit. Then I tried to harden it in my little barbeque, but couldn't get it hot enough. Then I tried a propane blowtorch, and and the kitchen stove burners, then both together. I tempered it at 400 for an hour and wrapped a basic handle for it. Then I dented the edge pretty bad after it bounced off a tree I threw it into and hit a metal pipe laying in the grass. I straightened the edge out and came up with this: Forge 1.2

I put some coals down, put the blade in, filled the coals in around it, and realized the volume of the coals had diminished quite a bit and no longer came near filling the can. I turned on the hairdryer and tried anyway. In about a minute I pulled it out and just below the tip was practically liquid. I quenched it in anger and threw it on the ground, snapping the tip off. It'll become a shorter knife i suppose. The can melted and burned out after it's second use, I realized insulating it from the outside isn't the best idea, it melted onto the bricks.

So I started another one, using a 12" Nicholson bastard mill file this time, I didn't like the idea of having to add so much material to the handy handle to get the girth I wanted. I annealed it in the new forge but was careful not to leave it sitting there like a retard, and I pulled it out and held it such that I got most of the blade portion red enough, I'm not sure yet if the handle portion will be easy to grind out. Got some bigger stronger dremel blades this time and I'm using a grinding bit to take some of the load off the belt sander. I'm going to try to give it a differential temper and hopefully a visible hamon under polish, not sure what I'll use for clay yet, I could use some advice on that, as well as how to get it down to a nice finish. I ordered a Holstex kit, a 2" elliptical handguard and some black paracord for it too.

My new forge is a 2 gallon paint can that I plan to lay horizontally and basically cut a sector out of, and run an air pipe through the bottom with holes in the sides and a plug in the end, providing air evenly across the bottom, and hopefully allowing me to evenly heat the blade.

I'll let you guys know how it goes!

Last edited by caspertheghost; 08-06-2012 at 11:40 AM.
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  #2  
Old 08-06-2012, 08:58 AM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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Casper,

Welcome to the forum! You clearly have the bug and from the looks of things so far you will succeed.

A couple of things that would help: 1) put the files aside for now and buy a piece of blade steel. It's cheap and it arrives fully annealed (soft).

2) Line your little forge with ceramic wool (kaowool or inswool). The bigger knife supply houses sell it pretty cheap.

3) Read more about heat treating. Realize that all steels do not heat treat the same way. This is why it's important to know what steel you have and what state it is in. To get it right, you need a lot more than 'OK, it's red, now where did I put that bucket of ice water'

Lots of info on these forum for heat treating 1084 and plenty of discussions on using files and building forges. The Seach key should help you locate what you need ...


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  #3  
Old 08-06-2012, 11:37 AM
caspertheghost caspertheghost is offline
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Thanks for the advice. From what I've read people in contact with Nicholson were told the files are basically equivalent to 1095, which needs to be treated at about 1500F. I've found a color scale online to judge the temperature and it seems to be about medium orange, a few steps above the red I get for annealing.

I do plan on trying out some real knife steel soon! However I enjoy making things out of other things, and the pattern is pretty cool.

edit: I edited my original post and it disappeared... I'm guessing it has to be approved again by a mod...

Last edited by caspertheghost; 08-06-2012 at 11:45 AM.
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  #4  
Old 08-06-2012, 06:15 PM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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OK, but for what it's worth, color charts are subjective. What looks medium orange to you under the lighting you have may look considerably different to someone else under other lighting. Also, 'basically equivalent' to 1095 leaves a lot of wiggle room, especially on a steel like 1095 where a difference of 50 degrees can spell success or failure and any change in the exact alloy requires fine tuning the heat treatment.

If it doesn't crack within a few days you probably got something that will work OK ....


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Last edited by Ray Rogers; 08-06-2012 at 08:07 PM.
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  #5  
Old 08-06-2012, 07:43 PM
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Eli Jensen Eli Jensen is offline
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Ray is right. "Cherry red" to me looks bright orange. I rely heavily on magnets.
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  #6  
Old 08-06-2012, 09:34 PM
caspertheghost caspertheghost is offline
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Indeed, I will bring it to non-magnetic then a slight shade further for a moment before quenching it. I'll probably use oil instead of water to prevent cracking. But you can't get a hamon with oil right? I probably shouldn't attempt differential hardening yet, it increases the chances of cracking too, right?

Also, I think I'm going to normalize it twice before the final quench. So I'll heat it to nonmagnetic, air cool it to black, then reheat it to nonmagnetic, and quench. And repeat, taking it the slight shade further on the last one.

I'll probably try and put together a propane forge while I'm at school, with a pyrometer so I can soak at a constant KNOWN temperature and get some real carbide going on.
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  #7  
Old 08-06-2012, 09:57 PM
Doug Lester Doug Lester is offline
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You can get a hamon or quench line with oil, depending on a few things. One is the steel. Because that is a Nicholson file you're probably safe on that count. Another is grain size. Depth of hardening increases with grain size and visa versa. If the grain size is too large then the steel will harden all the way through. Keep the grain size small by multiple normalizations without over heating the blade or soaking it for too long and it could produce the steel crystals that produce a hamon or quench line.

Another thing is the method of quenching. Edge quenching will produce a quench line as long as the steel is not air quenching. A clay quench to slow the cooling of the steel covered in the clay coating needs a fairly shallow quenching steel. If you want to produce a "natural" hamon with the thickness of the steel then you will really need to have a shallow hardening steel and watch the grain size along with the cross section of the blade.

After that you will need to polish and etch the blade to make the hamon/quench line to stand out.

Doug


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  #8  
Old 08-07-2012, 08:31 PM
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Based on your post you haven't read nearly enough. Case in point is the 1095/Nicholson files comment, much more posted information out here that qualifies that information with more specifics on what is and what isn't. Get past "oh, that's simple enough" and read inductively, whole lot more to this than you have indicated in your post.
Ray's advise is solid.


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  #9  
Old 08-13-2012, 07:17 PM
caspertheghost caspertheghost is offline
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Hardening it tomorrow!


I widened the slot in the guard and was playing with the paracord a bit.

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  #10  
Old 08-20-2012, 11:30 PM
caspertheghost caspertheghost is offline
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So my blade didn't get hot enough... I think I need to bury it under the coals next time... which is hard with barbeque briquettes, so I broke the next bag up into pieces averaging a third the size. To fill in some space if not insulate it a little I tried to pour vermiculite in around the air pipe thinking it somehow wouldn't all blow out (which it did).

I couldn't find any firewool or firebrick at my local hardware store, so I poured in perlite around the pipe and packed furnace cement/perlite on top of that. I gave it a trough shape. I put tape over the air holes to keep cement and perlite out, thats why you can't see some of them.

I mixed the last of the furnace cement with some fine perlite I sifted and coated my blade with it! We'll see how it goes.

Last edited by caspertheghost; 08-20-2012 at 11:48 PM.
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  #11  
Old 08-21-2012, 04:21 AM
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Longshot Longshot is offline
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First off, welcome to the forums and the addiction! I have done a lot of work with Nicholson files so I know what you mean when you say you like the pattern. I know a lot of people do, and they find it unique. But Ray and the others do have a good point. It will be much easier to start out with a steel that isn't a mystery metal.

However, my advice, if you want to keep working with Nicholson files, would be to keep it simple until you have done more research on heat treating your blades. I have found John D. Verhoevens book to be really helpful in that area.

I personally use a simple cycle that you can do with your kitchen oven. I find it works pretty well with the large mill bastard files. First shape it on a bench grinder or other tool that will allow you easy control over the steel. Be sure to keep it cool by putting it in water when you start to feel the steel heat up. Once it is shaped, you pre heat the oven to 450 degrees, then once the temperature is reached, place the blade in for an hour and a half. After that, just turn the oven off, and let it slowly cool. After it is cooled, it should be a purplish color near where the edge will be, and a reddish color along the thicker sections. If you wish you can clean this coloration of. Then you set the oven for 400 degrees, and once the temp is reached, place it in for a half hour, then shut the oven off. After it has started to cool for about half an hour, pull it out and immediately quench it.

I cannot promise that this will work for you, but it is what I have found to have worked for me. Once this is done, the file will have some flex to it without staying bent. However, you should still have the great edge retention that you would have if you had not re-tempered it, but it will not be as brittle. And like I said before, I cant promise that it will work for you. If it doesn't work for you, just fiddle around with the process until you find what does work for you, and be sure to test the hell out of your blades. Breaking a few in the process is the best way to learn the limits. Chop 2x4's, cut tough ropes, anything that would be really punishing on the steel. Just be sure to have fun and be safe!
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  #12  
Old 08-21-2012, 08:23 AM
caspertheghost caspertheghost is offline
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I've wanted a file knife ever since I first saw pictures of one online. For my next knife I'd like to order some 1084, I kind of made this project up as I went, now I'm just trying to finish it before I go back to school in a few days. (I'll be taking a basic shop skills class which will allow me to take lathe and mill classes! There's even a metallurgy class I'd like to take next year but I don't know if I can get into it as a business major.)

So are you saying I shouldn't anneal the file in the first place but instead keep it's original heat treating, grind it, then temper it like you said? I figured the factory heat treat is probably better than mine but I'll probably need to get a better grinder to work hardened steel (I'm using a dremel and a handheld belt sander with cheap belts that wear out quickly). If I try another file I'll probably do it that way. However I'm thinking about trying to build a nice little propane forge with better temp control while I'm at school, maybe I'll be able to step my game up.

But since this file (and two others I'll show you guys) is already annealed and such I'll attempt to quench them at 1475 today. No real precision at this point but going a little over the Curie point is probably as precise as I can get at this point.

Sadly any abuse I wish to inflict on it will have to wait until September when I go camping (well, at a festival at a campground, not real camping). It'll stay tucked away until then.
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Old 08-21-2012, 01:36 PM
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Longshot Longshot is offline
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That metallurgy class would be good to take if you can. Just learning from a book can get really confusing!

Yes leave the original temper, however, most other knifemakers will tell you to anneal the steel first to make it easier to work. This is true, but if you are just starting out in heat treating, it is easier if you don't have to do one of the steps, so you can learn them just a little bit easier. I have also found that if you anneal the file first, it has a tendency of vibrating a lot when you work with it, making it easier to mess up since it is so much softer. The hardened state is a much more gradual process of shaping and more forgiving when shaping. However, if it works better for you to anneal it beforehand, by all means go for it! Half of the fun is figuring things out for yourself.

If you make the propane forge, you may be able to use that, but remember that color will always be a subjective reference when it comes to the temperature of the steel. Let us know how the quench goes!

As for the tools that you use, I would suggest an angle grinder or a bench grinder if you cannot afford to get a belt grinder yet. There are several cheap and powerful ones you can get from Harbor Freight that will work well. And you can get a warranty on it so that if you break it you just send it back and they replace it for free.
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Old 08-21-2012, 08:40 PM
caspertheghost caspertheghost is offline
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It didn't crack! None of them did. However I've run into another recurring problem. The tip heats up before the rest of the blade does! I tried to tilt it up and rearrange the coals a little bit (my poking implement is a big flathead screwdriver) but the glow slowly traveled down the blade. Once the bottom of the blade reached the Curie point I got nervous and dunked it in canola oil (my heart still races the entire time the blower is running). I couldn't tell what the temperature difference was between the ends of the blade, but there must have been a difference, despite my attempt to even out the heating. So the tip was probably a little too hot. I don't think I got significant grain growth, as the shade of red wasn't too much brighter, and it wasn't in there for long. But hopefully I got some good martensite in the tip, probably progressing to pearlite near the bottom. It all seems to glide the file fine to me, and has become much harder to sand. The clay stayed on well, but as expected I think it slowed the heating of the blade a little bit. Most of it came off easily, but after hitting the belt sander it still has some cement in the file grooves. I tempered them all for an hour at 275, then tempered the small two again for an hour at 400.

There is a visible hamon shaped line, especially farther from the tip, but it almost appears to be composed of pitting. The tip is a little textured, probably from oxidation. Theres still plenty of grooves left from my belt sander, so it'll take some cleaning up before I can even start to polish it. I probably should have raised the grit before treatment.

The other two heated evenly for the most part due to some manipulation. I wasn't as nervous and I was sure to stick them back in to bring them a little bit past the Curie point before quenching them. They should be pretty good! The one with the hole in the handle is the file in the pictures above that I melted the tip off of while trying to heat treat. I normalized the tip 4 times with a torch before grinding to try and shrink the grain since it was probably pretty gnarly.

I'll post another picture when I figure out how to get the guard to stay on... Do you think I could melt solder inbetween it and the knife? Or would that just be ridiculous?

Last edited by caspertheghost; 08-21-2012 at 08:51 PM.
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  #15  
Old 08-25-2012, 10:13 PM
caspertheghost caspertheghost is offline
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All done! I didn't have any foam for my kydex press, so I used folded up fluffy pajama pants. Also I ended up screwing the guard up beyond fixing so I decided to ditch it.

Last edited by caspertheghost; 08-25-2012 at 10:16 PM.
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