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The Newbies Arena Are you new to knife making? Here is all the help you will need.

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  #1  
Old 07-04-2014, 08:29 AM
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Fulmaduro Fulmaduro is offline
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Warped Stainless Post HT Re-temper Fix?

Simple question, for I rarely have used stainless. If I receive a stainless steel blade back from a commercial heat treater like Texas Knifemakers or Tru-Grit that is warped, can I just use my jig I made of angle iron, clamp the blade in the angle iron, offset the warp in the opposite direction with washers, etc., and just re-temper to correct?

I have done this a few times with carbon steel to great effect, and don't see why it shouldn't work on stainless in my home oven.

Do commercial heat treater normally do the cryo and temper after HT even if your blade comes out of HT warped? Just curious because I would not want to clamp up a hardened-only blade in my jig if they didn't complete the process. Thanks for any info or tips!

Tony Z
Kansas City, MO


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  #2  
Old 07-04-2014, 08:57 AM
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You paid for cryo and heat treat so I would expect that they completed the entire process even if the blade warped. Uneven grinding can cause warping which is one reason I grind after the HT is completed. Of course, sometimes the steel simply has stresses already in it and grinding just releases them - all you can do about that is straighten the blade.

Yes, you can correct the warp the same way as you did with the carbon blades but it will probably take longer and require more steps. Stainless isn't very flexible so you run a significant risk if you just crank it over when its cold. Tighten it up in your fixture, put a little bend on it, and put it in the oven. After at least an hour of heating crank some more anti-warp in it. Repeat that every hour or so until you get all the anti-warp you want, then let it soak like that for 4 to 6 hours. Let the blade cool while still in the fixture.

Before you start this straightening process be sure you have finished all the grinding - the primary metal removal - that you intend to do. You can do the clean up grinding and finishing after the blade is straightened but if you remove much metal after straightening the blade will warp again ....


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Last edited by Ray Rogers; 07-04-2014 at 08:59 AM.
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Old 07-05-2014, 04:20 PM
donnymac250 donnymac250 is offline
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Question grinding

so ray , you do not do any blade edge grinding at all until after heat treating ? i thought we were to grind before and after heat treating .
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Old 07-05-2014, 04:42 PM
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Donny,

I profile my blades, then HT, then do all the grinding and finishing. This is a personal choice based on my experiences and I'm not the only knife maker who does it this way. I feel sure more guys do it the way you described but there are many who do it the same as I do.

Have you ever done a really nice grind, something you're very proud of, and then had the blade warp badly during HT? All that time and effort lost, those belts wasted. Not me, not since I started grinding post HT about 15 years ago.

Ever done a nice grind, then the HT, and found a couple of pits in the steel after HT that wouldn't come out because maybe you ground a bit too thin and now there wasn't enough meat left to cover it? Not me.

Ever notice that your edge seemed a little softer than you expected due to decarb? Not to worry, that situation will probably fix itself after the knife has been sharpened a few times. Too bad you didn't grind post HT though, the situation would have never happened.

I can profile most any blade I make from a bar of steel to a finished profile in under 15 minutes and use only one old 60 grit belt. That's not a huge brag, anybody can do that, but then if the blade warps all I lose is the 15 minutes and an almost worthless belt. Lots more to lose if you do your grinding pre-HT.

Add to that that its uneven grinding that can induce the stresses that can cause a warp into a blade before HT and you can begin to understand why some of us prefer to do the heavy lifting after the HT is complete. Sure, it is a tiny bit slower to do and you do have to use high quality ceramic belts for the initial grind but I haven't found that to be much of a downside. The price of the belts goes to the customer and it rarely takes me more than an hour to grind and finish a blade. To me, the benefits are easily worth the effort ...


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Old 07-05-2014, 05:45 PM
donnymac250 donnymac250 is offline
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Smile good idea

yes i agree with every thing you have stated here . i have had those problems . and grinding slower may be a good idea for me any how , as im still learning . so if i use a old blade that i got from a saw mill , i should not have to do any heat treating or tempering ? just grind and it will be good to put a handle on it ?thanks again ray
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Old 07-05-2014, 06:13 PM
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Well, you can grind and old saw mill blade and not do any heat treating but it wouldn't be the ideal situation. The knife you get that way will be tempered to whatever the saw blade was. If the saw had hardened tips added to the teeth then the body will likely be pretty springy - which is soft for a knife blade, something like the Pakistan knives you see. OK, but no gold medals.

If the saw blade doesn't have hardened teeth then the body may be a little harder but not too much. They can't have those big saws be too hard or they would crack. So, you'd get a decent mid-quality blade. That might be OK for your first few knives but you wouldn't want to make a habit of it.

Heat treating is the real heart and soul of a knife. The guys who forge get all misty eyed and wax rhapsodic about the soul of the blade but all that really just comes down to how well you can heat treat the steel, no matter if you do it in a forge or an electric furnace.

For now, a few knives made by simply reshaping an old saw blade is a good way to get some practice but if you want to make the best knives you can make you'll have to do the heat treating ...


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Old 07-05-2014, 07:28 PM
donnymac250 donnymac250 is offline
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blade

ok thanks ray . and sorry for jumping in on some ones thread .
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  #8  
Old 07-05-2014, 09:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Rogers View Post
The guys who forge get all misty eyed and wax rhapsodic about the soul of the blade...
But yes Ray I do indeed get all misty eyed and euphoric extolling the virtues of my soulful forged blades, until they get chucked behind the fence when they are beyond fixing!

Thanks for a good chuckle and something I will remember!

Tony Z
Kansas City, MO


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Old 07-12-2014, 08:43 AM
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Tony,

How did this work out for you?

I heat treated three largish AEB-L knives this morning and one has a slight bow in it.

Ray
Quote:
After at least an hour of heating crank some more anti-warp in it.
You are talking toaster oven kind of heat here right? I tempered at 350?F, so use the same temperature?

Thanks for your input. I am sure that many a good blade has been scrapped when the maker saw a wow and didn't know what to do. That was my first thought until I remembered this thread.

Dan
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Old 07-12-2014, 09:48 AM
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Dan,

Yes, we are talking about the same temperature that was used to temper the blade but we are also talking about a great deal more time (usually). I will spend all day (6 - 8 hours, at temper temps removing the blade every hour or two and cranking more pressure onto it until I think it has enough bend in it or I reach the limit of my jig).

As you know, tempering temps aren't high enough to make the steel very plastic so it usually takes many hours to get the steel to correct a substantial warp ...


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Old 07-12-2014, 10:14 AM
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Thanks Ray, I'll let you know how it goes.

Dan
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Old 07-12-2014, 12:00 PM
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NorCal Nate NorCal Nate is offline
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For the past year I've been doing as Ray does per his advice and I feel it's a way better way to go.
Tony.... Ask me about what a pain it was to get your KITH blade straight... Had to use all of Rays tricks. And he knows alot of tricks... He's always pulling them!
~Nate
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Old 07-12-2014, 01:19 PM
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One last thing about straightening with that jig: after you're done with the heating let the blade remain in the jig and under tension while it cools ...


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Old 07-12-2014, 09:20 PM
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Hi Guys,

I successfully un-warped a chef's knife made of .130" AEB-L with an old file, some old Allen keys and two mini c-clamps. I did it like Ray said over 4 hours at tempering temp and let it cool on it's own in the oven. Great save! But I need new gloves!

Dan


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Old 07-12-2014, 11:08 PM
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Dan, glad to hear of your success, and Nate and Ray thanks for that info also! Always welcome! I personally don't have a problem blade to fix yet but I am always thinking ahead, and when Murphy raises his head as he always does I want to be ready! Thanks everybody for your input!

Tony Z
Kansas City, MO


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