Shoddy Makers

[Eli Jensen]

So, I sort of get really wrapped up in things sometimes and go overboard, so I need some outside perspective. I know its not a new problem. I've noticed of late some "Professional Knifemakers" that are presenting SERIOUSLY flawed work, including design, fit, finish, HT, etc. And overpriced. Moreover, they have no desire to improve, and are genuinly proud of their poor work. Now, I think it would be different if they were hobby makers. But they are not. They are self proclaimed professionals that present their work where they know it may be praised (obviously not at knife shows, etc).

Now, to be clear, I sincerely do not think this includes anyone on this site, or most makers I meet.

What I want some perspective on is, should they just be left alone and let the market and/or karma take care of it? Maybe thats just their niche in the market, after all a sucker is born every minute. Or does them calling themself a professional knife maker reflect strongly enough on the profession as a whole that there is some accountability to the knife making community? I'm not saying be mean, at all. Rather, telling a hard truth.

[Cthulhu]

I don't dare name myself a "professional". Selling one knife in 10+ years don't count.

But I'm NEVER satisfied with my work. I can always find something needs fixing.

[AUBE]

I faced the same dilemma quite a few years back when a local "maker" was featured in a knife magazine. What the magazine failed to state, and what the maker didn't tell his customers, was that all the knives he sold were made from preground blades bought from Jantz, etc. He wasn't able to grind his own stuff.

Now there is nothing wrong with using a blade made by someone else....as long as your are HONEST about it. Thats what disturbed me about this individual...he wasn't honest.

Many of my own blades are budget oriented knives with a "user-grade" finish where the fit and finish lacking. I specifically point that out in the product listing and on our "about us" page, plus offer a full refund if a customer isn't happy. My conscience is clear.

What did I do about that maker? I was tempted to call him out, but I didn't. I didn't want the drama...I got enough of that in grade school. I encouraged him to grind his own blades, and offered subtle hints on being more honest with his dealings without being insulting about it. I think he went out of business before either happened....I haven't heard anything about him in a good 15yrs or more.

Also sometimes people are called out and customers just don't care. I know of a few people that have lied like crazy to market knives. Their lies were made public. Many customers just said "I don't care, I like their work" and they continue to be successful. With thousands of makers out there I personally wouldn't do business with a liar, but to each his own I guess.

[cbsmith111]

My humble opinion is that things like that should be left alone. Not just with knives, but with other things as well.

Regardless of how much they act to the contrary, most people aren't stupid. Everyone has their own set of ethics, expectations of quality, and what qualities they look for in a product. I am extremely new to the concept of handmade knives, but I can tell the difference pretty quickly when I visit a makers website, etc. Most reputable ones I've seen are proud to show pictures and information about their processes and even the equipment they use. People do the same thing with production knives. They're just tickled with something even though you could get a lot more quality for the same money. The customers who really care, the ones who love the knives and depend on them, are going to go to the good makers. Those are the the buyers you really want anyway, right?

[Imakethings]

I'll weigh in with my opinion here.

You're never going to get rid of folks that don't live up to your skill level and expectations of what a 'professional' should be. I'm miles from being a professional, sure I've got a decade and change working with metals in various fields, but I'm never going to call myself a professional. That would make a job of something I do to relax.

Rather than worrying yourself over those who produce crap knives you can do these two things:

1. Educate the consumers, there's a hell of a lot of specialized knowledge that goes into a high end knife. You can't expect most of those in the market to learn all the ins and outs of the craft to make a well informed decision on their purchase, so narrow it down to a short list that they can read or be told in 5 minutes or less.
Advertise the knowledge you have and do what you can to make it available to the public. Offer advice and opinions and knowledge to people who you see looking, more often than not folks are willing to accept help and advice from those knowledge.
They're going to eventually be disappointed with a lackluster knife if it was priced above it's value and will eventually want to know why it's not performing as advertised.

2. Raise the bar, improve your own skills, and set a standard that can be used as a comparison. You know what level of quality you expect, make those around you expect it as well.

[ckluftinger]

I will put my two cents' worth in here, not as a knife maker but as a similarly serious professional artist - I'm a chef by trade and I know many a "professional" who falls into that same category of the shoddy knife maker. These individuals tarnish the reputation of the entire trade, and we have a responsibility to cull them fom our ranks. Like so many ill-regulated professions, we cannot stop a hack from calling himself a "professional" chef - or knife maker for that matter. In the case of cooks, we can petition our governments to require licensing like they do for electricians and plumbers, and to insist on formal training prior to calling oneself a professional chef. I wouldn't want to see this for knife makers, except that anyone who calls himself a "professional" ought to have something to back it up with. The fine makers on this forum who are master smiths, I'm sure, would hate to be lopped into the same bucket of "professionals" as the shoddy makers you mentioned. I'm a hobbyist, and will be until I retire (then I may become a retired hobbyist) and i will never claim more than what I am. Similar to some of the responses you had here, my customers' satisfaction is unconditionally guaranteed, in fact, after I have completed an order the customer still has the option of refusing the piece, no questions asked. I want them to be happy with their knives, not feel like they've been duped.

[Cthulhu]

Originally Posted by AUBE

I faced the same dilemma quite a few years back when a local "maker" was featured in a knife magazine. What the magazine failed to state, and what the maker didn't tell his customers, was that all the knives he sold were made from preground blades bought from Jantz, etc. He wasn't able to grind his own stuff.

Now there is nothing wrong with using a blade made by someone else....as long as your are HONEST about it. Thats what disturbed me about this individual...he wasn't honest.

Many of my own blades are budget oriented knives with a "user-grade" finish where the fit and finish lacking. I specifically point that out in the product listing and on our "about us" page, plus offer a full refund if a customer isn't happy. My conscience is clear.

What did I do about that maker? I was tempted to call him out, but I didn't. I didn't want the drama...I got enough of that in grade school. I encouraged him to grind his own blades, and offered subtle hints on being more honest with his dealings without being insulting about it. I think he went out of business before either happened....I haven't heard anything about him in a good 15yrs or more.

Also sometimes people are called out and customers just don't care. I know of a few people that have lied like crazy to market knives. Their lies were made public. Many customers just said "I don't care, I like their work" and they continue to be successful. With thousands of makers out there I personally wouldn't do business with a liar, but to each his own I guess.

As a Knife maker who is in the same situation where I can't forge or grind (I can do both, well, but thats hard to do living in an apartment), I offer my knives up as custom handled and hand sharpened knives (And when I say hand crafted I mean extremely limited power tools), added to already made blades.

I'm up front about it.

[JawJacker]

I had to smile when I saw this post in the Newbie arena. Just sayin, just made me smile, The other reason Im posting is, for years I have owned and used this rubber handled Gerber folding blade.Until I started to get interested in this hobby I never payed much attention to knives, I have bought many for this and that through out the years losing most of them but yesterday I caught myself looking at the grind on that old Gerber that I had used hundreds of times and never even noticed the grind from one side to the other was off by 1/4 inch Now I know Gerber is no world class job but....... When I see these great knives you guys make I see a Great piece of Art first, knife maker second.

[piggy]

I think I have been on a few of their sites. The ones that say how great they are then make a statement like "don't bother to ask me any questions we don't give out trade secrets". Other problem is some people tend to use price as an indicator of the quality, so a jacked up price can sometimes sell a cheap product. As others just stated when it doesn't work right they will start asking why. Live and learn.

[Ed Tipton]

Eli Jensen...My $.02. I think what you're upset about is nothing more than a fact of life. Some people have greater abilities than others, and some people are more honest than others. The phrase "caveat emptor" comes to mind here. I don't think that shoddy work done by one maker reflects on the entire body of knifemakers any more than one bad plumber...carpenter...electrician etc reflects on their trade. There are good and bad performers in every walk of life.
If you do a quality job on a knife, and you are honest with your customers, thats about all you can do. The public is not stupid. You don't have to be a knifemaker to recognize quality when you see it. True...you may not be able to detect an inferior grade of steel by the general appearance, but if the fit and finish and overall appearance are good, then it's a pretty good bet that you're looking at a quality product.
Pretty much it comes down to your personal ethics. Do the best job you can,,,on every product...and do not intentionally mislead others as to the quality, and leave the other guy to his own individual standards. The truth will win out in the end.
I know my knives have room for improvement...and I do try and improve on each one I make...but I don't ever see myself telling anyone that my knife is the best they can buy...that is the buyers decision. I try and do a good job, and be honest in all things...and I think that the people who deal with me believe that to be the case. I know that I have made knives that were not worth a penny...but I didn't try to sell them. They found their way into the scrap or they were tested to the point of destruction. I have made many knives that were perfectly acceptable...but they were not perfect. I have never made a perfect knife...nor do I ever expect to...but I keep on trying.

[Eli Jensen]

Thanks for the feedback guys. I think I'm going to try and mellow out on this particular subject. Doesn't mean it still doesn't urk my tators though lol.

[JawJacker]

Nuttin like urkin yur tators.hehe

[Eli Jensen]

what I really want to say is not appropriate. rarely is

[GHEzell]

There is a local guy who makes knives, and was set up at a crafts show I went to a few years back. I gave his knives a good looking over while he was dealing with a prospective customer. They looked pretty good from arms length, but I could not help but notice that the edges were quite thick, and not sharp. I talked with him for awhile, and found out that he buys his steel from Lowes, and thinks carbon steels are too brittle to make a good knife. I talked with him a bit longer, then walked away.

I walked away, but I was sorely tempted to take out my little pocket seax and whittle slivers off one of his blades to demonstrate the advantage of a hardened, carbon steel blade with an actual edge!

I still have his business card... perhaps I'll visit him yet.

[Eli Jensen]

If you had done that, it would have been SWEET